Rod Liddle: I’m identifying as a young, black, trans chihuahua, and the truth can go whistle

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/i-m-identifying-as-a-young-black-trans-chihuahua-and-the-truth-can-go-whistle-tq550nx5f

This piece seems to have sent our favourite Doctor into an apoplectic rage yet again so I assume it is worth reading.

I get that EmpressAdultHumanFemale - on that we are on the same page.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly ridicule might make one feel better in the short term but rarely leads to the ridiculer achieving what they want.

ridicule that person Bernard, not all trans.

I think that's a fascinating approach, and that is highly likely to get someone deleted on this forum in the current climate. Whereas ridiculing the extreme notions that identity politics throws up is a critique of an idea, not a person, which is arguably less offensive than ripping the piss out of Clymer for their odd views and nasty looking purse.

I get that EmpressAdultHumanFemale - on that we are on the same page.

Good. Then how do we separate the few old-style transsexuals from the flood who are taking the piss? Only a very few of them are actually speaking up against the TRAs to say "No, we're not female & nobody can change sex. Give us a third space."

I think if more of them did that, and if Stonewall spent some of their massive amounts of funding on campaigning for third spaces & setting up domestic violence / rape services for transpeople, then most of the women who are currently worried sick and angry would be right behind them.

It's always nice to see consensus reached, thanks Jez for being willing to listen and admit when you got it wrong :)

EmpressAdultHumanFemale I think it's tricky because since the GRA in 2004 the law has recognised trans women as female.

Therefore even if the proposed self ID law does not go ahead, the law will remain as it is. Which is that TWAW and can use female spaces.

Asking trans women to lobby for a third space is asking them to fight to remove rights they already have. Like asking gays and lesbians to fight to make gay marriage illegal.

I cannot see women being content with the existing situation any longer after all the publicity surrounding the GRA amends but at the same time I cannot see any other end goal to fight for.

What are your thoughts?

Floral, arguing that the current trans ideologies leads to such ridiculous situations is different to saying trans people are ridiculous in general.

Maybe. I'd say that's a fairly fine line if we're talking about broad brush things like this. I think ridicule is limited in its usefulness, but I don't think it's something that anyone can reasonably expect to be shielded from, especially if a movement they are a part of is being used to press for ever more ridiculous things.

OT, but in an idle moment I did an image search for 'young, black, trans chihuahua' - as hoped it included some cute dog pictures but surprisingly included one of Jenni Murray who, it turns out, has a pair (one looking very grumpy), from a DM piece from a couple of months ago.

www.dailymail.co.uk/home/event/article-6086943/Jenni-Murray-doesnt-want-friends-interviewees.html

Maybe. I'd say that's a fairly fine line if we're talking about broad brush things like this. I think ridicule is limited in its usefulness, but I don't think it's something that anyone can reasonably expect to be shielded from, especially if a movement they are a part of is being used to press for ever more ridiculous things.

Agree. I think most of the ideology is absurd. They don't care about my feelings about how much their nonsense is damaging women's rights. I'm not going to tip toe around it. Sorry. Other people can do what they like.

And this whole "I have a right never to be offended" attitude is a huge part of how we've got here.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale I think it's tricky because since the GRA in 2004 the law has recognised trans women as female. Therefore even if the proposed self ID law does not go ahead, the law will remain as it is. Which is that TWAW and can use female spaces

Jezebelz I think you are right. A terrible mistake was made when this nonsense and untruth was enshrined in law. But it was and I can't see trans people agreeing to unravel this now. But they have chosen, or their (possibly self-appointed) representatives have chosen to barge forward even further and seek Self-ID, wilfully tearing down protections for women and girls against predatory men.

I would have a lot more sympathy with the trans movement if they joined with Johnny Best et al in their campaign to get Stonewall back into their lane. If they let women speak without throwing bigot at us. But so far they haven't.

Before I knew anything about this I couldn't have cared less about old school transsexuals. They were probably in my changing room and I wouldn't have cared all that much. Now that I'm not allowed to use the word woman to describe myself and other women, well, the whole lot can go to hell.

Still happy to look for a compromise when the majority of this group reject the TRA and agree to work with women.

rightreckoner yes yes, see where you're coming from.

Still happy to look for a compromise when the majority of this group reject the TRA and agree to work with women.

Yes me too. And I stand by my position that sharing articles from a sexist, misogynist, child abuse apologist ridiculing the very nature of transgenderism is not the way to go about it.

I think transgenderism as an idea is founded on hugely oppressive ideas and basic appropriation. I have no respect for it as an ideology at all.

I accept there are a number of individuals who struggle with gender dysphoria to the degree they are partially helped by a GRC and other measures, and I have no particular impetus to campaign to row back on that provision.

I can see no justification whatsoever for opening up access to that very specific measure to the wide cohort that would be able to claim it under self ID, and the consequences of the further entrenching of Genderist ideas in all aspects of society.

In my view transgenderism without gender dysphoria is rooted in sexist stereotypes. It deserves to be ridiculed.

I'm not totally sure how I feel about transgenderism with gender dysphoria tbh.

having thought about it some more...

the idea that anything other than which gametes your body is set up to produce determines your sex is inherently ridiculous.

the idea that gender means anything worth a damn is inherently ridiculous.

ridicule away Rod.

I think if GRC holders wanted their certificates to retain even a shred of credibility among women, they should have spoken up much louder & much sooner - preferably the moment the reforms were suggested.

I think if they want to try to pull things back now they should recognise that sex is not gender & step back gracefully when appropriate.

I think they should be loudly condemning all the non-GRC holders currently invading women's spaces & taking our rights.

I think they should be telling Stonewall, Pink News, Diva etc exactly what they think of their current homophobic, misogynist stances. I think every time the likes of Riley Dennis or VICE posts about lesbians liking penis, they should be right in there reinforcing that lesbians ARE female homosexuals and any other claim is lesbophobia.

And I think they should be giving Mermaids HELL for drugging & sterilising children who are nowhere near old enough to make that decision, & lying about suicide statistics to justify their actions.

Then we might have something to talk about. But I DON'T think that women are required to be "kind". You'd be astonished how many women I've met who kindly signed the Tara Hudson petition & have bitterly regretted it since.

Oh yes. And if they're upset that we're angry & unwelcoming now, they should be taking it up with Stonewall & the TRAs. Not with us.

Well said.

Eresh

🍷here's to not being so kind that people wipe their feet on you.

I'll drink to that.

Excellent post EmpressAdultHumanFemale

Thanks Datun .

In any relationship kindness is only sustainable when it's reciprocal. Unreciprocated kindness is just a euphemism for exploitation.

After being told by my three year old yesterday that I was mean for not allowing chocolate for breakfast we had a friendly and low key chat about how good mummies need to say no sometimes and that saying no isn't always mean.

I used a reductio as absurdum approach to illustrate what would happen if I said yes to every insane demand my kid has and we ended up in fits of laughter.

He then agreed no chocolate. So a three year old can grasp this concept: that kindness isn’t the same as giving in to every demand.

Unreciprocated kindness is just a euphemism for exploitation.

And a cover for entitlement. It's like the phrase I loathe, I asked nicely - just a social cover for someone who never accepted that the other person had the right to refuse and for that refusal to be accepted.