Thoughts about sex and consent.

[Ponderingbythepond]

I’ve recently had my second child and am evaluating a lot of stuff about my life.
This will be our last baby and I’m looking towards what life will be like from now on in a lot of ways.
For the last 3yrs sex for me has been about getting pregnant (4 pregnancies, 2 babies born). Now I’m done with that part of my life it’s got me thinking.

It occurred to me (and this sounds stupid) that to ‘have sex with someone’ means with someone. Together. The words have suddenly changed in my head.

I’m 34 and shocked at how much of my sexlife has been coerced, nagged, guilted. And that’s not counting an abusive relationship that included rape.

My DH (together for 10yrs) is genuinely a good man and great father. He has never pressured, nagged, etc etc. We’ve had sex about 4 times in the past year, I’ve had a difficult pregnancy and just haven’t wanted it. So we haven’t.

I thought being an educated, feminist woman had protected me from this shit. But looking back there are so many times when I’ve just gone along with sex. Been so passive about it, let it happen rather than been really there.

Talking to DH about this he mentioned how as a teen he thought he had to ‘trick’ girls into liking him and sleeping with him. That being him wasn’t enough. That girls/women wouldn’t want sex, he’d have to convince them, and they’d give it up. Thankfully he is no longer like that, or I wouldn’t be with him.

I realise now, despite thinking I was above all that, actually I was ‘putting out’ ‘giving it up’. It seems to be ingrained that it’s something I give away rather than something I participate in. And that still stays in me now.

I don’t know how to work through this. Has anyone else felt the same?
I honestly thought things were better for women of my generation, but turns out for me it’s still not great.

I’m asking here because I want a feminist stance on it and a good chat!

I don’t know if I’ve got what I wanted to say out properly. I guess I’ve been blind to the conditioning and all of a sudden it’s become clear

It's about boys/men being taught that women are gatekeepers for sex, I think bound up in the whole idea that "good" girls don't acquiesce to sex quickly/easily. It's part of social conditioning.

And ties in to the film trope I hate so much about the guy getting the girl in the end after much persuading and chasing. Rather than depicting women as agents of their own sexuality.

And for more depressing shit look at the thread about the rape victim's underwear.

Yeah it’s the gatekeeper thing. And then aren’t men good for not just raping us, allowing us to be gatekeeper. Allowing us to say no. Until no means maybe.
Ergh.
Even thinking to times I’ve really been into someone, wanted to get them into bed, and then the passivity kicks in.
It’s really depressing

Ithink I could count on one hand, the number of times I actually, true had sex that I genuinely wanted. I struggled for far too much of my life, with the expectation that sex shoul happen, so it did.

My ex husband would proclaim to understand consent perfectly, but the only sex we ever had was what I now call ‘pester-fucking’. He was all onboard with the idea that sex shouldn’t happen without consent, but it would be unreasonable of me to not consent at least twice a week.

That hardly sets the scene for someone I would genuinely want to have sex with, and eventually I divorced him over it.

‘Pester-fucking’ ergh yep I’ve been there. So grim.
I was going to ask why do they do that? But the answer is they get what they want, so it works.

I’m raising two sons, am married to a man, but generally I really don’t like ‘men’ as a group.

well I sometimes have sex when I don’t particularly fancy it because my husband wants it. Sometimes I nag him for sex. I think you may be elevating sex to some kind of weird special thing status. Prossibly as a result of years of exposure to a culture that dictates that sex is a big deal for women, it has to be meaningful blah blah blah. I see it as not different to any other physical activity. Sometimes for example, I like to go for a run, but this is very rare. Sometimes I do it alone but I enjoy it more when I do it with others. My husband runs every day. Sometimes he asks me but I usually say no. Sometimes he will pester a bit and I’ll go with him. He’d never force me to go for a run with him though either by physically lifting me off my fat arse, changing me into running gear and dragging me along the pavement or by threats or calling me fat etc. That would be a horrible thing to do. But I don’t think the instances when I forgo for a run despite not wanting to are an issue. Obviously sex will sometimes have repercussions that don’t come from running but as conceptual analogy it’s useful because it removes the social status/stigma of sex. All of what you describe seems to stem from the idea that women as a default position shouldn’t want sex. Instead we should consider the default position as one of indifference. Everyone is indifferent to sex unless they are feeling horny or they have suffered some kind of trauma that makes sex difficult. On that presumption if sobeobe wants to have sex with someone else then they need to male that person want to have sex with them as opposed to the trucking you describe. Likewise if someone has sex to their partner purely for their partners benefit it’s not really an issue but merely something that is neither here nor there, this weird guilt complex that some women have over having sex when they don’t really really want it is just as weird as men thinking that sex gas to be coerced out of women.

If you're having a sex when you don't want to because your partner has pestered you into it, that is not on. It's not at all the same has having sex when you're initially not fussed, but your partner puts in some caring effort into getting you interested sufficiently.

Am with racecardriver on this. If you are in a relationship and there is a difference in sex drive you will have to compromise. Sometimes it will be you and sometimes him. It's not a big deal.
If someone is trying to force you against your will then get out of the relationship. But if you are in an otherwise loving relationship, don't get hung up on this one issue.

@racecardriver I quite like the running analogy, it’s interesting to see how other people see things.

For me I think I’ve got the ‘special thing’ hangup, much as I was determined I didn’t while I was younger with one night stand, FWB so on.
Also having had an abusive relationship, it’s hard to know what’s caused by that or what’s caused by conditioning/society.
I don’t think I could ever see sex as going for a run/not going for a run. Or just scratching an itch.
I suppose having it forced on me makes it into more of a big deal for me ‘letting someone in’.
It’s so so interesting how all this stuff shapes us that we’re not even aware of. What forms our attitudes and beliefs about things.

I think it's one of the key root causes to a lot of problems. Both sexes are, from an early age, led to believe that sex is a transaction from women to men. Ideally it is one that is given but then if it isn't given resentment grows. Add to that, if something can be given, it can also be coerced, bought or taken by force.

Agree @eightoclock @Racecardriver

Sometimes you do don't you because they are your partner and you love them. It's not like you don't enjoy it once you get into it.
Sometimes your just knackered. He'd never make me though that's totally different. It's all done in a jokey way and I've never felt forced.

Sort of feel like I’m starting my sex life again afresh after this last pregnancy. And I actually get to decide how it’s going to be and how I’m going to be in it.

Talking to DH about this he mentioned how as a teen he thought he had to ‘trick’ girls into liking him and sleeping with him. That being him wasn’t enough.

I've suspected for a while now that his (prior) belief regarding his own low value is what drives so many men into coercive and dominating behavior. They think they need a great job with lots of money to attract a woman, because their assumption is that they have nothing else to offer. Yet women will say time and time again that they're attracted to kind, loving men, not the size of their penis or bank account.

Seems like for so many men, their massive ego and entitled attitude is just a cover up for low esteem. But before any lurker assumes it's her womanly duty to pander to these entitled clowns, it probably needs to be said that at root, these men's low self esteem is caused by measuring their self worth according to a standard of toxic masculinity. They don't realize they can grade their (self perceived) value on how kind they are to women (instead of grading themselves on well they dominate us).

Yeah. I was quite lucky in that I was raised with two opposing beliefs. My mother was all virginity is important, it’s wrong for girls to have sexual desires etc. While my father was very candid about his free love past. ‘Oh yes and Mary was Gina’s best friend, I slept with her too, but she was married to Gary who was sleeping with Anna who I slept with because she always found the best imports but I was actually really in love with my wife but she refused to move to the yard and I couldn’t leave so we barely ever saw each other’ blah blah blah. ive Also been really lucky in that my husband was the first boyfriend I had and he is very kind and respectful so my own experience of sex has been formed in this monogamous, respectful, affectionate context. The thing about sex is that talking about it (especially with children) is very taboo still so most discussions end up being very politicised or very basic so for many people their experience of sex is either through a moralistic lense or through their own experiences. As such ones view can be very biased either through exposure to one polar extreme through upbringing or through subjective experience. I think that if parents were more open about discussing their own sex lives with their children more people would have healthier sexual relationships and be able to make up their own mind about the significance of sex more easily.

I'm placemarking, OP, sorry, I know it's not the done thing. But I hope to come back to this thread in the morning because it really resonates with me.

The difference is persuasion over tricking or coercion.

I can be persuaded to do many things, because I have changed my mind or opened myself up to change.

Being tricked, fooled or coerced is not acceptable.

Gah the girl-as-gatekeeper idea.
This is what boys talk about and believe. That it is unfair that girls hold "all the power", ie the access to sex.
Because boys only get to have sex when girls want to.

yes. so unfair.

Totally agree op. It's only since I got to my 40s that I really understood this shit. And meeting my partner who also understood it. I look back in horror tbh.

Interesting thread, OP

I had some similar thoughts after DH got the snip and suddenly for the first time in my life, sex wasn't overshadowed by "fuck, what if I get pregnant!", or all the complications that trying to get pregnant, miscarrying, giving birth etc bring with them. Sex is now purely a thing that we do with each other, and only each other, because we love each other and it's fun.

The thing is, though, that the whole "women are the gatekeepers of sex and men have to trick, cajole or flatter them into bed" trope is so old. I'm sure there must be examples in the classics, but medieval literature is over flowing with stories where the knight is never able to woo fair lady (courtly love stuff) or women - and men - are tricked into doing stuff (the fablieaux are filthy)

I look back now at the amount of 'pester fucking' I had with the ex, especially when we were younger and can't believe I put up with it. Especially when it was very clear to him that I didn't want it.
I think that so much of it us down to the assumption that sex is something men get from women rather than something you do with each other.
It pretty much explains a lot of the orgasm gap too, I think.

This is interesting.

I was in a sexless marriage for a many years - truly sexless, not the

To be fair to your husband, both boys and girls are trained by society to believe that women are the gatekeepers of sex and men need to weedle it out of women.
As many girls and women buy into this idea as men do.