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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Susie Green

128 replies

SlowlyShrinking · 06/11/2018 17:51

Is the implication that she supports this? I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised, but fucking hell!!

Susie Green
OP posts:
Evidencebased · 06/11/2018 18:44

How old does a child need to be to take an irreversible, but arguably relatively minor, decision to have a tattoo, in UK? 18

Age to get female sterilisation? Probably going to get refused under 30 (www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/female-sterilisation/ )
You might change your mind is a commonly given reason...

Any body piercing of under 18 legally requires written permission from parent.

The idea that a depressed/ distressed young teen is in a position to make lifelong decisions about future fertility, and probable effect on future relationships , would be laughable- if it were not tragic.

I can understand that a loving parent might agree to almost anything, whilst in the throes of dealing with a suicidal teen. It's the most difficult situation I've ever lived through.
But even that level of teen and parent despair does not justify medical and surgical intervention which may well be the wrong thing to do.

Would the parents of teens with severe body dismorphia, who insisted they needed a limb amputated, be supported in this choice?
I would suggest it more likely that such a child would be taken into care.

Some children may persist, and transition may be the choice they make. As adults. That may make it harder for them to ' pass', and that's a shame.

But not enough of a shame to make the sacrifice of the majority, who would have resisted if kept off blockers and hormones, worthwhile.
No other major, life long treatment would be allowed for children to choose, not for a single second, if it was only going to benefit 10-20% of patients.

There's some insanity going on here.

placemats · 06/11/2018 18:46

Would lobotomies be acceptable to reduce behavioural patterns not in accordance to societal norms now?

Butterymuffin · 06/11/2018 18:50

That statement about psychological assessment never being required is flat out wrong. Has anyone challenged her on that in reply?

Evidencebased · 06/11/2018 18:51

placemats lobotomies are a good analogy. They were thought to be a good idea: but now we are horrified at both the procedure, and the reckless way it was used.

Janleverton · 06/11/2018 18:56

If I went to my go and asked to be sterilised, to have a hysterectomy or ovaries removed, then I would surely be questioned as to my reasoning?

FFS the hoops that women have to go through when they’ve got more than enough kids/dysmenorrhea/endometriosis etc in order to have surgery.

HandsOffMyRights · 06/11/2018 18:59

It's child abuse in plain sight.

It takes us back to times when people believed in lobotomies and a flat earth (oh hang on, some still advocate the latter).

Heartbreaking that this is allowed. That dangerous figures have a public platform and access to power and money. Just to validate their own decisions.

There are some dangerous characters among the TRAs. But those targeting children and vulnerable families, are the lowest of the low.

Stop transing kids.

OrchidInTheSun · 06/11/2018 18:59

Buttery - I don't know if you've ever challenged Susie on twitter but she'll block you faster than you can say Mermaids

mirandayardley · 06/11/2018 19:04

For example.

Susie Green
littlbrowndog · 06/11/2018 19:05

Can’t drink
Can’t smoke
Can’t get married
Can’t get tattoos
Can get breasts cut off at 13
Can get genitals mutilated
Can be given strong blockers drugs
What’s the phrase in Tesco. Think 25
Bout time this was used by anyone thinking its aceeptable to do these to children
Time all the “cool woke politicians “ had a look at themselves and see what is happening to children

MyAuntyBadger · 06/11/2018 19:10

Completely agree with LemonJello, imagine having to live with yourself after doing this to your child.

Evidencebased · 06/11/2018 19:12

From a tweet in response to - " based on competency, not age "

When does the agenda shift to "age of sexual consent should be based on competency not a fixed age" ?

placemats · 06/11/2018 19:12

My son, who is 17, cannot buy Red Bull because he doesn't have ID.

Evidencebased · 06/11/2018 19:22

Under 18s can't buy in UK
Alcohol
A knife
Lighter fuel
Tobacco
A firework

Why? Because they can be or are harmful, and under 18s are not thought to be responsible enough.

I'll shut up now.

Thingybob · 06/11/2018 19:32

noraclavicle

Could someone explain what the ‘sterilisation clause’ is, please?

I think it comes from here but I'm not sure exactly what paragraphs they wish to reform
apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/112848/9789241507325_eng.pdf;jsessionid=38A8B18544ED619ED828877783584EC4?sequence=1

GemmeFatale · 06/11/2018 19:40

Well the concept of Gillick competent has existed in the uk for many years now. But that requires an under 16 to understand and fully appreciate the benefits, risks and drawbacks of any treatment.

It’s how, for example, under 16 year old girls get contraceptives and abortions without parental consent.

I think a doctor would be hard pressed to prove a prepubescent child could fully appreciate the long term physical and emotional impacts of transitioning; of being sterilised, never being able to enjoy a sex life, etc.

BettyDuMonde · 06/11/2018 19:43

Psychological assessment is required because, as Bespin told us the other day, being trans is pretty much a self-diagnosed condition.

The vast majority of medical interventions are in response to observable symptoms, confirmed via objective testing (blood tests, X-rays, MRIs, biopsies, electrocardigrams etc).

My daughter, who is the same age as the newly-out trans-child discussed on another of today’s active topics, was recently taken seriously ill and needed immediate treatment to save her life.
There was no time for any kind of psychological considerations to be made prior to treatment, but we are both now receiving professional support to cope with the after affects of trauma and the ongoing mental stress of coping with long term illness. This was arranged by the children’s hospital while my daughter was still in paediatric ICU.

So, while Ms Green maywell be correct in her assertion that psychological assessments are not routinely* required for children under going ‘cisgender surgeries’, I don’t doubt that if it were offered, it would be enormously beneficial, both before and after the surgery.

  • actually, I don’t think she is correct, if I recall correctly both my amputee friends had quite a lot of psychological appointments before they were deemed able to consent to their surgeries (despite both having completely non-functioning limbs that significantly reduced their quality of life) and when I had BRCA testing earlier this year, I had to have several sessions with the genetic counsellor before the blood test was performed, and had I inherited it (I didn’t) I would’ve had to have more counselling before being referred for risk reducing oophorectomy/mastectomy.
MrGHardy · 06/11/2018 19:46

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SlowlyShrinking · 06/11/2018 19:50

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R0wantrees · 06/11/2018 19:57

Significant experience of a woman abused as a young girl by her father, who transitioned in her 40's and now has clarity:
(extract)

"After undergoing years of counselling, he says he has finally discovered he wasn't transgender. Instead, he says, he was a woman suffering with horrific complex PTSD after years of sexual abuse.

"Looking back now I realise that it was simply a feeling that if I didn't have a vagina, I couldn't be raped," he revealed.

"I feel completely 'mutilated'," he added."

He says he should never have been allowed to transition, claiming sexual abuse sparked his dissatisfaction with his female body.

He alleges his father raped and abused him when he was a teenager, but died five years ago, before he could be charged.

Now, he looks in the mirror "through the eyes of that terrified 15-year-old girl and see this funny little man staring back at me".

[S]He has spoken out on the 'taboo' subject of gender reassignment reversal to encourage others to seek talking therapy before surgery."

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/im-still-debbie-man-reveals-13532989
thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3414138-Im-not-meant-to-be-a-bloke-Woman-who-changed-gender-to-become-man-called-Lee-says-sex-swap-was-a-huge-mistake

BettyDuMonde · 06/11/2018 20:00

Could someone explain what the ‘sterilisation clause’ is, please?

In some countries transpeople are required to be sterilised before they are eligible for whatever their governments equivalent of a GRC is.

Of course, if the criteria is ‘full medical transition’ then both male-born and female-born transpeople will left sterile by their respective sex reassignment surgeries, as they include orchiectomy/ hysterectomy & oophorectomy.

The U.K. legislation does not require this, so it’s unclear why Green thinks it’s ‘key’.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28575446

ThePrincipal · 06/11/2018 20:06

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DeRigueurMortis · 06/11/2018 20:22

Given the underpinning rational for Mermaids push for affirmation is based on suicide statistics that have been utterly discredited, it's not unreasonable to question why an organisation which purports to support children questioning their gender identity hasn't reviewed their stance (in fact they have arguably doubled down).

I can only conclude the motivation of such an organisation is likely disingenuous and it's impossible to dismiss the personal agenda of the CEO and other senior stakeholders as a possible cause of this.

noraclavicle · 06/11/2018 20:24

Thanks ThingyBob and BettyduMonde
The way they so blithely discuss such radical alteration of childrens’ bodies is something I can’t even begin to wrap my head around ...

R0wantrees · 06/11/2018 20:27

thread worth reading: a young woman's story (includes detransitioning)
twitter.com/dogcalledbambi/status/1059876191904153607