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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shocked by sexual offences lecture - sex by deception and 'bigoted' women.

36 replies

WeeBisom · 06/11/2018 16:20

I just got back from a criminal lecture in sexual offences and I'm a bit stunned, so I have to rant a bit. The lecture started off well by discussing radical feminist views about consent- Dworkin and MacKinnon were referenced. The main theme was stressing that even in non-criminal sexual encounters women's sexual autonomy is often threatened - women don't yet have full sexual freedom. So far so good.

We then to get to sexual deception - cases where women are tricked into sex. We cover, in particular, the McNally case. In brief, McNally was a female who pretended to be male. She created a male persona and tricked a female friend into sex. The friend insisted that she believed she was having heterosexual sex with a boyfriend - she had no idea she was having sex with the female McNally. McNally was convicted of sex by deception.

After hearing a whole hour about how women's sexual autonomy is paramount, and a fundamental right that needs to be protected along comes the theories of Prof. Alex Sharpe (who has been mentioned here previously.) Alex thinks that the McNally case is a huge injustice because McNally was jailed despite having a 'male gender identity'. McNally wasn't 'posing' or 'pretending' to be a boy - she really was a male. The law does a great injustice to trans people by assuming that their gender identity isn't authentic - by assuming that McNally really was just committing identity fraud. McNally, the argument goes, was as male as any 'cis' male and so his identity should have been respected as genuine.

Immediately, two thoughts come to mind. Firstly, there's no evidence that McNally was really transgender, in the sense that she would be protected by the equality act. McNally completely presents as a woman, and has never denied she is a woman, and it's doubtful whether she really ever truly believed in the 'Kai' persona. So it's disturbing that Sharpe is calling McNally 'transgender'. Secondly, let's suppose that McNally really did have a genuine male gender identity - she really was a man, just in a 'differently configured body'. How is the law supposed to tell when someone is 'genuinely' a male on the inside, and when someone is just a fraudster? More importantly, how are sexual partners supposed to know this?

The lecturer told us more about Sharpe's 'theories' and I have to say that I began to get seriously angry. Sharpe thinks that there is 'too much emphasis' on sexual autonomy. Trans identities, and trans validation, is more important than people's rights to sexual freedom. When compared to this nuanced, fantastic feminist analysis this just seemed...well...anti-feminist. Sexual autonomy is overrated. Women just have too much of a say when it comes to sex!

Sharpe also thinks that if a victim is upset by being "deceived' then the law should take no heed of their 'bigoted' feelings. They only feel disgust, apparently, because they are transphobic. If they weren't transphobic they wouldn't be at all bothered by the "deception". Their disgust, in fact, should be treated as irrational - nothing to be taken seriously, and certainly nothing that should be considered in a court case. By this point I was raging.

Oh and to top it off, I asked the lecturer what we should think about a case where a lesbian, who by virtue of her sexual orientation desires to have sex with female bodied people, unwittingly consents to sex with a male bodied person who has a 'female gender identity'. I pointed out that in this case, both individuals have marginalised identities. The lecturer said that in this case the trans individual's identity is marginalised if we say the sex act was fraud. Apparently the lesbian's identity is not marginalised by having sex with a 'trans woman'. WTF. Oh, and this wasn't clarified, but presumably the lesbian who was upset about this was being 'irrational' and a transphobic bigot.

It's 2018 and this is what is being taught in criminal lectures.

OP posts:
Blanketbox · 06/11/2018 19:24

Well done for challenging in the lecture. You should do this at every possible opportunity. Why does the trans person’s identity trump the lesbian’s? Don’t people have the right to a sexual orientation? How does this relate to the law? At least it will make others in the lecture think and also feel that they can question things.

heresyandwitchcraft · 06/11/2018 19:45

I may be mistaken, is it the position of Stonewall's Trans Advisory Group that "sex by deception" should not apply to trans people?
It's absurd, wrong, and incredibly coercive to insist that biological sex doesn't matter to the person you want to have sex with.
The clue is in the name.
FFS.

MrGHardy · 06/11/2018 19:50

What a piece of trash. Every day you hear new sickening things coming out of that movement.

BlatheringWuther · 06/11/2018 19:56

Am I reading this right - some male lecturer stood up and said that there is too much emphasis on women having control of their own bodies?

PimmsnLemonade · 08/11/2018 23:20

I may be mistaken, is it the position of Stonewall's Trans Advisory Group that "sex by deception" should not apply to trans people?

I don't know about Stonewall but the LGBT Foundation are lobbying government on this. It looks like they want to ensure that part-time cross dressers are covered and that people shouldn't have the right to give informed consent, not only on the sex of the person they are having sex with but also what body parts or objects are being used to penetrate them:

lgbt.foundation/news/sex-by-deception---statement-from-lgbt-foundation/32

R0wantrees · 09/11/2018 08:46

It looks like they want to ensure that part-time cross dressers are covered and that people shouldn't have the right to give informed consent, not only on the sex of the person they are having sex with but also what body parts or objects are being used to penetrate them:

5/11/18 Hull:
'Cross-dressing pensioner jailed for bizarre rooftop sex acts with G-string on his head
Barry Mason admitted outraging public decency'

(extract)
"A woman cleaning her child's bedroom watched in horror as a scantily-clad pensioner performed a series of bizarre sex acts on the roof of his home.

The resident was about to remove some net curtains at 12.30pm on July 25, when her gaze fell upon Barry Mason, 68, on the flat roof of his house in Estcourt Street, east Hull.

She took out her mobile phone and filmed the pensioner, who was naked by then, for between 20 and 30 minutes. The video formed a key part of the evidence against Mason in court.

Describing what happened before a segment of the footage was played to a shocked Hull Crown Court, prosecutor Phillip Evans said: "She did move the net curtain aside and initially thought that she was observing a woman, because the individual she could see had shoulder-length blonde hair and was wearing lingerie.

"After a few minutes, however, the defendant removed what was in fact a wig and his male genitalia could be seen.

"[She] took up her telephone and used it to record what she could see, moving her net curtains aside to achieve that.

"She saw him remove all the clothing he was wearing, place a G-string formerly worn adjacent to his genitals over his head, place a cylindrical object described as a sex toy in [an intimate part of his body]".

Mason performed a sex act "then removed the cylindrical object and placed it in and close to his mouth before wiping the cylindrical object with the g-string, then placed the G-string in his mouth". (continues)

Mr Evans said: "He said he was a naturist. He accepted that the police had spoken to him two years ago verbally in his home about such behaviour."

He had earlier interrupted Mr Evans's opening of the case, angrily saying: "I'm not a pervert, I'm a naturist." Mason also claimed to have face "constant threats".

Mr Evans said Mason also told police had "gone up on the roof dressed as Brianna, what the defendant described as 'my other way of living'. He explained that he was bisexual and he put female clothing on when he was in his home". (continues)

www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/cross-dressing-pensioner-jailed-bizarre-2185106?

Randomusername01 · 09/11/2018 16:08

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6372433/Gay-man-tricked-straight-men-having-blindfolded-sex-jailed-15-years.html so technically all he has to do is claim he is trans and he should be let free? Seems legit 🤔

Beagadorsrock · 26/11/2018 14:16

I've just looked at that Alex Sharpe. Until now I was somewhat heartened that proper lawyers were not amongst the purveyors of the TRA crap. I am now completely appalled that someone who can tweet such BS as "the law uses sex and gender interchangeably" (and write it, too, academically) has been promoted and gone unchallenged, in the UK.
FFS. The Equality Act was merely supposed to bring together all the various anti-discrimination regulation together, the first of which was the SEX discrimination act. There was no messing around with terminology. These people are proper evil incarnate.

Manderleyagain · 26/11/2018 19:13

Beagadorsrock The EA and the GRA do seem to use both the words sex and gender as if they are the same thing (without defining them). I read what the judge in the case where someone wanted 'non binary' on their passport said - basically that at some point the law would have to account for and define the differences between sex and gender, but at the moment it hasn't done. On Woman's Hour this morning Rosa Freedman cited a case in the 70s that defined sex (as bodily/biological) but said gender had not been defined in law yet. It seems like a confusing situation.

NotMeOhNo · 26/11/2018 20:59

Was the general feeling in the audience outrage or unthinking acceptance?

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