'I'm not meant to be a bloke': Woman who changed gender to become man called Lee says sex swap was a huge mistake

[TrashyTerf]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6351711/Hemel-Hempstead-transgender-man-60-regrets-gender-reassignment-surgery-11-years-on.html

Warning: DM link! (Although I'd rather click on a DM link than a Guardian link these days!)

Trigger warning: child abuse details included below

*"A transgender man who had a sex change 15 years ago has branded it the biggest mistake of his life and wishes he was still a woman.

Lee Harries, 60, of Hemel Hempstead, Hertfordshire, was born Debbie Karemer but underwent gender reassignment surgery at the age of 44.

After years of struggling with his sexual identity, he had his breasts, uterus, ovaries and fallopian tubes removed, before doctors made a prosthetic penis for him.

But years later he says: 'I'm not meant to be a bloke' and believes he is not transgender.

Mr Harries, who married his partner Alan before he transitioned, has undergone counselling, where experts have told him he has PTSD as a result of being sexually assaulted by his father."*

I don't have time at the moment to reply but there are a lot of medical treatments that are dependent on the patent wanting them with little or no checks

Like what? I can’t think of any others that involve the removal of organs.

from the work by Elizabeth Gordon (link to website in previous post):
"Quoted from an email from Jeanne Sarson and Linda MacDonald – 2018

“Naming Non-State Torture (NST) as a violation of the human rights of women and girls. All forms of violence against women and girls that may entail severe pain or suffering (whether physical or mental) violate the right to be free from torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.

Discrimination exists for women/girls who suffer torture by non-state actors in the private/domestic sphere when this form of gender-based violation is not socio-legally recognised as a specific crime and a distinct violation of their human rights.

Women and girls who are tortured in this way must be recognised as a specific vulnerable group. Unless there is a specific NST law and this law is enacted, criminal-legal data fails to record acts of gender-based NST therefore NST remains invisible.

The European Court of Human Rights, interpreting Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights has for example held that rape is an “specially grave and abhorrent form of ill-treatment” and that the “specially cruel act of rape the victim was subjected to amounted to torture”. See, Aydin v. Turkey, European Court of Human Rights, Application No.29289/95, judgment of 25 September 1997

Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/cedaw/text/econvention.htm#article1

And you are right, ‘trans’ isn’t one thing and it’s clear that many people who identify as trans don’t want surgery.

bespin I couldn't really understand what you were trying to say in your last post as the punctuation has gone astray, but lumping people altogether as 'trans people' is exactly what I am against.

That is why I put ' ' around 'feeling trans'. Because I don't think it scratches the surface of what is going on for most trans people people who have disorders of the self/ identity, that may manifest as such things as feelings of gender dysphoria. And/or sexual issues. It is a dangerous shorthand I think and the trans umbrella.. well.. just wrong. It fails people, real, individual, complex people.

The right therapy can help work out why something is happening, not just validate symptoms. You should know this if you work with PTSD. Cause and effect etc.

Thank you angryattackkittens. Mental ill health eh.

On one hand trans women are ‘widening the band width of what it means to be a woman’ and appear fully male (and Phillip Bunce/Alex Drummond aren’t just outliers, they are actively involved in mainstream trans advocacy) and on the other early medical treatment is being advocated by Mermaids.

Meanwhile teenage girls who we know are already at risk for eating disorders and self harm are learning how to chest bind online.

But apparently it’s all good because it’s all under the big inclusive trans umbrella?

I agree Bespin that trans is not one big group, but it is very difficult to question anything once it is classified as ‘trans’.

But apparently it’s all good because it’s all under the big inclusive trans umbrella?

"The first time I changed the world was when I told my mates to call me she rather than he. I literally constructed a new world where its possible to understand myself as a genderqueer woman, despite being asigned male at birth simply by changing the language to describe myself. This is why language and pronouns are so important. Its about creating a world in which trans people are allowed to exist"

"And I can honestly say that the work that trans people do for each other means that, for me at least, the trans community is a beautiful place to be. Despite our differences, we have each others' backs"

Jess Bradley 'To My Trans Sisters'
edited by Charlie Craggs

Incredibly sad

Well no exactly- this big trans umbrella is a part of the problem.

-People with genuine dysphoria
-Young women experiencing trauma driven disgust and disconnection with their bodies
-Fetishists

None of those groups need the same treatment.

But think of what lee says in that article- they reject their body because their biologically sexed body is what is being raped and by not having that female anatomy the trauma will stop.

Lee was literally trying to identify out of being female because of biology based oppression.

That’s exactly what radical feminists are saying: female biology is the source of our oppression.

Times article today:

(extract)
"The police have a problem with women. They resisted investigating gangs who sexually exploited girls. They failed to take seriously victims who reported the black cab rapist John Worboys. This dismissal gave criminals impunity to commit more crimes. “It is the whole system that has failed,” a victim of Worboys said after she’d had to bring a high court case to challenge his release.

A steep rise in crime and a drop in arrests have left the public with doubts about police competence. Rather than address internal failings, Sara Thornton, chairwoman of the National Police Chiefs’ Council, told its conference last week that one way to improve performance would be to exclude misogynist abuse from the hate crimes law. Cressida Dick, the Metropolitan police commissioner, agreed, saying that police should return to their “traditional values”.

Yet misogyny underpins most violent crime, from sexual grooming to domestic violence, sexual assault, rape and murder. No one is calling for race, religion or disability to be removed from the list of hate crimes.

Let’s be clear: it’s not the law on hate speech that is at issue here, it’s the addition of misogyny. This is a challenge to patriarchy itself, an ideology and political system that divides society into two groups: adult men and everyone else, where everyone else is of lesser value." (continues)

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3414658-Times-article-Misogyny-is-a-gateway-belief-justifying-abuse-Heather-Brooke

That’s exactly what radical feminists are saying: female biology is the source of our oppression.

Exactly.

"I was traumatised by what had happened in my life and it was misdiagnosed as being transgender.

"I was vulnerable, I just though that if I wasn't a girl my life would be different, I would be different, I would be accepted and that would be it.

"I thought that becoming a man would make me worthy and I would become a different person."

You don't have to have been raped, or feel like this woman to understand.

And I don't just mean understand, I mean a hundred percent, solid gold, iron tight clarity of profound understanding. Because women's oppression is everywhere. Misogyny is everywhere.

You don't have to have suffered from the worst of it, to see it.

Any woman reading this story will be struck by the distressing recognition and familiarity of the sentiment, if not the actual experience.

A ‘self diagnosed’ condition that results in the removal of healthy organs, the suturing of natural orifices, and a life long dependence on synthetic hormones is an incredibly troubling phenomenon.

I know an (ex) woman whose father died and she immediately decided to become a man. She’d had no feelings about her gender prior to that. She replicated her father’s haircut and started going on about how much she resembles him now she’s a he. There are clearly grief issues here and I wonder what will happen when the dust settles considering that there have now been medical interventions.

But think of what lee says in that article- they reject their body because their biologically sexed body is what is being raped and by not having that female anatomy the trauma will stop.

Related to this, males of either the dysphoria having variety or the fetish having variety are absolutely not the right people to be providing guidance to women and girls who find themselves in that situation. And yet here we are, with both groups insisting on their right to do just that and trying to scare off the very women who might actually be able to help if they'd get out of the way and let us.

Properly heartbreaking to read of this woman's story. Her distress should upset any person reading who has a normal level of compassion.

And I find myself looking through my fingers nervously at the situation, waiting for her to be piled on by AWAs for damaging the narrative. Endlessly disturbing.

Related to this, males of either the dysphoria having variety or the fetish having variety are absolutely not the right people to be providing guidance to women and girls who find themselves in that situation

God no.

I think there are other surgeries that are based on feeling. My cousin was sexually abused. Obviously she has lots of mental health issues and whilst I see some women might wish to become men to avoid rape, she focused on making her body more pleasing to abusers. She has had a lot of breast surgery as a result. Breast implants are sold as some life affirming thing if you lack confidence. They come with very few mental health checks and many sugeons have no scruples, offer no counselling and actually push women to go larger than they ask for so the end result causes physical pain and discomfort. I don't think they fully explain how often these things need replacing and at the end you still have mental health issues from the abuse.
I think very thorough counselling that challenges the concept of being in the wrong body not just for trans but other surgeries is needed. I'm obviously not talking about reconstruction after an accident or cancer but if an otherwise healthy individual wants to change their body via surgery it shouldn't start with the premises that's it's always right. I know after proper support for some people it will be right and that's fine. But my cousin has had so many unnecessary surgeries and what made her life better was a proper diagnosis and treatment for post traumatic stress.

Related to this, males of either the dysphoria having variety or the fetish having variety are absolutely not the right people to be providing guidance to women and girls who find themselves in that situation

I mean, can you imagine a man who fetishises women's biology having anything to do with a woman who is disgusted by hers due to sexual abuse.

Or, a man who so rejects his male anatomy, he believes that female anatomy is the natural, and only, option.

Which probably accounts for the disconnect most women feel when Bespin speaks about this.

Yep. It's not only not helpful, it's actively unhelpful.

Related to this, males of either the dysphoria having variety or the fetish having variety are absolutely not the right people to be providing guidance to women and girls who find themselves in that situation

100% this AAKittens and Datun.

Nor are many male doctors it seems.

And yes, that fetishists are able to counsel anyone or make policy is abhorrent. But of course one can say that again, the men pushing for this are the very ones women need to worry about.

And of course transmen, recruiting allies to rejecting their bodies and bolstering their coping strategies. Like pro-ANA. Not objective.

This is all abusive, some intentionally and consciously so and some not. Still bad for women.

Datun I will be over here quietly doing my job helping the people that need helping if it's ok with you. I am very mindful of the issues that I present and will often highlight them when I feel that I would not be able to work with someone due to them. I would expect any professional to do the same for a number of reasons in relation to trauma.

I'm not talking about your job, Bespin. I'm talking about you opining on here about women with gender dysphoria.

If you are the fetish variety of transwomen, your opinion on female anatomy should preclude you from having an opinion.

If you are if the gender dysphoria variety, it's still difficult to give your opinion any kind of neutrality. Your craving for female anatomy, would skew your opinion of a women's gender dysphoria, to an impossibly biased degree. How could it not?

but there are a lot of medical treatments that are dependent on the patent wanting them with little or no checks

Really??? Like what? Because I cannot think of any.

@Bespin

May I ask, what is your job?

Yes, yes, AngryAttackKittens ( p 4 at 08:54:06)

In the interests of accuracy, Datun, I can only find this quote from Stephanie Davis Arai:
'A PSHE teacher and Head of Year at a large comprehensive told me that in her school the kids who identify as ‘trans’ are, without exception, either lesbian, autism spectrum, have mental health problems or have suffered sexual abuse.'

I'm not sure SDA herself sees that many trans children or has expertise in autism etc.

I did also find a paper saying 'The findings supported the clinical impression that a large percentage of adolescents referred for gender dysphoria have a substantial co-occurring history of psychosocial and psychological vulnerability' (sample: 50 adolescents assessed for GID, who turned out to have an average of 6 out of 15 'vulnerability factors' considered).

I can't access the whole paper to see exactly what the 'vulnerability factors' were, or how this compares to a random sample of adolescents.