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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'I'm not meant to be a bloke': Woman who changed gender to become man called Lee says sex swap was a huge mistake

114 replies

TrashyTerf · 04/11/2018 16:33

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6351711/Hemel-Hempstead-transgender-man-60-regrets-gender-reassignment-surgery-11-years-on.html

Warning: DM link! (Although I'd rather click on a DM link than a Guardian link these days!)

Trigger warning: child abuse details included below

*"A transgender man who had a sex change 15 years ago has branded it the biggest mistake of his life and wishes he was still a woman.

Lee Harries, 60, of Hemel Hempstead, Hertfordshire, was born Debbie Karemer but underwent gender reassignment surgery at the age of 44.

After years of struggling with his sexual identity, he had his breasts, uterus, ovaries and fallopian tubes removed, before doctors made a prosthetic penis for him.

But years later he says: 'I'm not meant to be a bloke' and believes he is not transgender.

Mr Harries, who married his partner Alan before he transitioned, has undergone counselling, where experts have told him he has PTSD as a result of being sexually assaulted by his father."*

OP posts:
TrashyTerf · 05/11/2018 05:37

@Bespin

Thanks for replying. I am glad that transitioning was the right choice for you.

One of the problems here is that medical professionals and academics are being stopped from questioning or researching this area. As you said, there is currently no set diagnosis for all trans people. However, I think that there should be. Surgery and hormones are life changing and a permanent commitment. They should only be performed/ given in the right circumstances.

OP posts:
Bespin · 05/11/2018 05:42

let's make this about people's experiences shall we I full acknowledge hers and that this is not 100% everyone gets this right but what does that even mean. how would you know at the time that was not the right thing to do even if people point it out. I know people who have decided this was not for them in the end. not always because of society but because it was not right for them and that's ok our community spent too long not acknowledging that probably as a responce to people wanting us to be certain that we are who we say.

R0wantrees · 05/11/2018 05:46

Why not just read what she has said and consider it a little more?

Bespin · 05/11/2018 05:46

lots of treatments are life changing any surgery is but we allow people to make those choices daily wirh little check eg breast enlargememt for which the regret rate is higher. but this is not about judgement or right and wrong but providing the correct information for people to make informed choices about there lives

R0wantrees · 05/11/2018 05:49

She was sexually assaulted by her father when she was a child:

"After undergoing years of counselling, he says he has finally discovered he wasn't transgender. Instead, he says, he was a woman suffering with horrific complex PTSD after years of sexual abuse.

"Looking back now I realise that it was simply a feeling that if I didn't have a vagina, I couldn't be raped," he revealed.

Bespin · 05/11/2018 05:49

rowantrees I read the article I am sad that it happened to them that they didn't have people around them that could help them explore the issues properly and that I hope they find peace.

R0wantrees · 05/11/2018 05:52

Telling her story now is about her finding peace.

Its also about her speaking up and being empowered thus.

She deserves respect for that.

To be heard.

Bespin · 05/11/2018 05:54

I would be happy to talk about the issues of complex ptsd and trauma reponces in young people as this is the area I work in. but I'd like to do that in a thread that is not trying to prove a point about transition as I feel the issues are far more widespread than just this. when young people question there gender then trauma should always be a question that is looked at and I beleive that the people who work in that area do that but complex truma can take years to unpack and the mental health services in this country are not equipped to cope with the work that is required

R0wantrees · 05/11/2018 05:56

Lee tied the knot with Alan in December 1997. But his self-loathing became so extreme he almost cut off his breasts with kitchen scissors.

It was in 2002 that he first heard of transgender and gender reassignment surgery while watching an episode of the chat show Kilroy in his living room.

"The programme was introduced as a 'special' where transgender men and women were on," he said.

"At the time it was a state of mind no body really spoke about.

"I remember seeing them on the TV and thinking 'that's me!'

"I suppose they seemed confident in themselves and seemed accepted.

Bespin · 05/11/2018 06:07

rowen I am sure people can read the article I remember seeing a program with Caroline cossey on at age 5-6 and thinking is that possible and thats me it took years for me to decide yes that is me and a lot of could I be wrong or wishing I was not that. again there is no right or wrong in that it's coming to a conclusion. I never want anyone to be trans if they are not there is too much pain and loss still to wish anyone goes through this without needing too, I can only imagine how that must have been for them and can relate to feeling so out of connection with your body that any measure feels like the right one. again we need people around us and support to make the best decisions for us and that all options are valid I think treatment plans are changing at the time they were all or nothing you were expected to conform to them

R0wantrees · 05/11/2018 06:10

Do you ever consider how many of your sentences begin 'I' ?

As I said, this thread is about a woman who was abused by a child and failed as an adult. It is her story which this thread is about.

Bespin · 05/11/2018 06:10

8 hope we can all agree that we need better health care options for transgender care something that is vastly underfunded and that flexible individual treatment plans that are not a one size fits all will help prevent people making choices that are not right for them

R0wantrees · 05/11/2018 06:12

In the context of this thread, it would better to assert that clearly we need better health and social care for children who are abused and for women experiencing complex PTSD as a result of the trauma.

AngryAttackKittens · 05/11/2018 06:14

Can I suggest that when someone is attempting to me-rail a thread the most effective way of preventing that from happening may be not engaging with the me-railing?

Bespin · 05/11/2018 06:16

rowen if this thread was about abuse then we would be talking about that and not detransition. if she was on here sharing her story then we would be discussing it with her. we are not we are on here making a point about some people make choices that are not right for them because of other reasons this one being trauma and for that my heart Truely hurts. I am centering this around my experiance because that is all that I have I am doing that because it humanises it as a discussion around the choices that we make. I would love to discuss it with her and explore the complex reasons around the choices we make and how we can get better at making them

Bespin · 05/11/2018 06:18

rowen I 100% agree with the need forore services for young people who suffer trauma and trauma informed care

wingwarbler · 05/11/2018 06:19

I can totally see that this was the wrong choice for them and they could have been helped better but no one diagnoses anyone with this there are no tests you can take all that people do is allow you to validate how you feel there is a misunderstanding that doctors can tell you your trans and that if they don't done how your not in the years that I saw them all they did was asked me if I was a woman in various ways and helped eventually facilitate treatment for me. this is on the whole a self diagnosed condition and that does mean we can be wrong. I 100% agree that our reasons should he explored and do worry about the effects of trauma on people. I had a successful transition but in done respects I'm lucky though I do have a nerve issue due to surgery. as I said this is not perfect but this was the best I could do. others I know were not so lucky but that does not mean that being trans is the lesser option. it is about finding peace within yourself something that no treatment can do in its own. we all do things to ourselves that we have to find a way to live with the good and the bad I am fully aware that one day I may not feel like this but I can not see it.

Bespin many of us really do understand and empathise with feelings of distrss and mental illhealth. In ourselves and in others. And what lengths that may drive people to. Consciously or unconsciously.

Your post above horrifies me, because it is exactly what I believe is terribly wrong with how trans people are nothelped nowadays.

This is not the approach that doctors should be taking. Symptoms can be self diagnosed, but there are diagnostic questionnaires and therapies that should be exploring people's reasons for having these symptoms. It can be explored and understood and differential diagnoses must be explored. There is nothing inevitable about any of this. That is the failing of doctors. It is verging on criminal in my view as there are other options and theories that can explain and help, and they are not being considered.

No other physical or mental health medical issue just gives the patient what they want by the patient's own diagnosis. It is insanity to do so. That it may be coerced by people feeling suicidal is even worse. And no other suicidal patients get treated so deferentially I can tell you. Something is very, very wrong here.

Of course one cannot force on people that there may be trauma in their past if they do not remember it that would be abusive, but that it may surface later is exactly what happens to many people, and exactly what happened to the person in the article. But this is why years therapy need to be started and people seen earlier by the right therapists. To give people time to explore what is happening to them and how they feel. Social transition was used in some cases to help stabilise people while longterm therapy was continued, and of course some people will always suffer with thier symtoms. Mediation and therapy is not a magic wand. That we now give people hormones and surgery is a line that we should not have crossed. This is where we started with quick fix boob and nose jobs. Fixing the symptoms not the cause. Fixing the object of the MH problem.

This is why treating children with identity/ dysphoria issues early is exactly what we need to be doing. But treating them with talking therapies and people with safe boundaries who can help them learn to cope with their feelings and symptoms whilst the causes are explored. Not with unquestioning affirmation.

It is wrong that doctors are quick fixing, colluding, enabling, or worse (some of these transition doctors I really have concerns about). I suggest that it there is something there that 'fits' very well with the types of parents and childhood that trans people experience, and their transition actually becomes another type of abuse or failure by those who are supposed to care for them.

We have terrible mental health care in this country and it is getting worse and more dangerous all the time. I am frustrated and scared for people. Women because we always bear the brunt of it in so many ways, and for trans people too. And the males that I believe experienced abuse and trauma that go undiagnosed and may go on to perpetuate abuse and damaging behaviour. It truly is a nightmare.

R0wantrees · 05/11/2018 06:20

Elizabeth Gordon is an artist and a campaigner against Non State Torture. She advocates for non state torture to be named and recognised for what it is, so that the voices of survivors have the words to name the violence they suffered. She campaigns for a human rights based approach to supporting survivors

interviewed here by Julian Norman: filia.org.uk/podcasts/2018/10/3/filia-meets-elizabeth-gordon-non-state-torture

Non-State torture is named in the The Women’s Equality Network (WEN) Wales 2018 CEDAW Shadow Report ~ page 17.

"An excerpt from my email to WRC dated 7 June 2018:

“We cannot further the human rights of women and girls not to be subjected to torture unless we face and name the uncomfortable and disturbing reality that women and girls do suffer torture by family, by parents, intimate partners and through trafficking and prostitution. Please do not discriminate by invisibilising the torture women and girls suffer by leaving this population behind.”
artprintspace.net/

'I'm not meant to be a bloke': Woman who changed gender to become man called Lee says sex swap was a huge mistake
Bespin · 05/11/2018 06:22

if you consider a thread to not be going the way that you want it too then I'm sorry but it's a open forum and there are lots of threads on here I feel like that. I would love to see a thread about the effects of complex ptsd in general and the abuse of children and woman. I'm sure that I wider discussion would be welcomed but at the moment this forum is mostly focusing on this area.

wingwarbler · 05/11/2018 06:22

'FEELING TRANS' IS A SYMPTOM, NOT A DIAGNOSIS.

R0wantrees · 05/11/2018 06:25

"Now, he looks in the mirror "through the eyes of that terrified 15-year-old girl and see this funny little man staring back at me".

"The thing with objectum sexuality is they are addictions and I felt compelled to have them," he recalled.

"Looking back it was just a way of coping with the trauma."

AngryAttackKittens · 05/11/2018 06:26

I know someone who transitioned for much the same reasons Lee did. It shouldn't have been allowed to happen. It could happen far more easily now than it did than, and that's worrying.

wingwarbler · 05/11/2018 06:40

"I had spent years feeling I couldn't live in my own body and hating every single moment. I thought the female body was disgusting.

"When I showered I used to gag at the sight of my body.

"Suddenly I saw the answer on Kilroy. It felt like the only answer.

"I remember when I started waking up in the morning and seeing stubble on my face, thinking 'this is the start of a new life' and I'm no longer this traumatised girl.

Flowers to Debbie and everyone similarly affected and traumatised.

Debbie should be helped ASAP. It is criminal that she was not given therapy before transition. Criminal. The private psychiatrist needs investigating. I am here apparently seen as 'anti-trans' and phbic, when I am more pro-MH than many doctors and fighting in RL for people to be actually helped. So fucked up.

AngryAttackKittens · 05/11/2018 06:41

I am here apparently seen as 'anti-trans' and phbic

You're not, except by people whose connection with reality is clearly tenuous at best.

Bespin · 05/11/2018 06:42

wingwarbler

I don't have time at the moment to reply but there are a lot of medical treatments that are dependent on the patent wanting them with little or no checks. if you see trans a purely a symptom then I feel this is where the issue is what else would. the treatment be trans is not just one thing and we are all not being treated for the same condition thst is the issue and when people try to treat us as one big group it is wrong.

rowen as always the things you post are interesting and I wish they were done outside the context of this.

angery I hope that that person found peace in there lives