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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Libby Purves in the Times "Lamplugh's lesson for the metoo generation"

27 replies

merrymouse · 03/11/2018 07:26

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/lamplugh-s-lesson-for-the-metoo-generation-krfzvsz3p

Sorry, don't have a share token.

"It also prompts reflection on how the militant trans and binary movement, starting as a demand for decent recognition, in some quarters denies the physicality of gender entirely"

OP posts:
AgathaRaisinDetra · 03/11/2018 07:45

I don't understand what you're saying.

merrymouse · 03/11/2018 08:14

Sorry, just sharing an article which people may not be able to access if they don't have a Times subscription.

The main point of the article is that women's safety depends on recognition that they can be physically overpowered by men.

OP posts:
borntobequiet · 03/11/2018 08:34

Pleased with that from Libby. Current problems well contextualised in her reflection on past events.

TimeLady · 03/11/2018 08:34

Suzy Lamplugh has often been in my thoughts in the intervening decades; just an ordinary woman doing her job and ending up prey to some lowlife predator. It could have been any of us.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 03/11/2018 08:35

I really don’t like the way the writer has shoe-horned the current discussions & tensions around gender identity & sex discrimination into an article about Suzy Lamplugh. It makes me feel uncomfortable because it seems to really be playing to the ‘fear’ angle that so many people talk about.
Perhaps I’m being over sensitive about not getting the Suzy Lamplugh Trust dragged into this fairly toxic debate but I think it feels a bit like emotional blackmail. The article for me would have stood up as well on its own without pursuing that angle IMO.

IrenetheQuaint · 03/11/2018 08:38

Yes, that's good. Libby Purves has always been a big supporter of the original GRA and rights for old-style transsexuals, so good to see she realises the TRAs are quite a different breed.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 03/11/2018 08:39

I mean, not to say it’s not a valid point - you’re a lone female worker going off to an appointment with a female client, your risk assessment & approach will be different to that if you were meeting a male client.
I just think it’s playing in to the hands of the ‘you think all trans people are dangerous/this is just Section 28) (non) argument.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 03/11/2018 08:41

really good article, thanks for linking

this caught my eye

We risk, in our anxious political correctness, losing sight of basic truths about comparative vulnerability

yes, yes, yes

at the start of this it felt somehow wrong to me to say 'men, generally are bigger and stronger than women', as if I was admitting something that could harm me or be used against me

but actually not admitting it could harm me. we have to live in the real world. I'm not in a film, if a man attacked me, the only thing I've got is my brain, because my body will not be strong enough to get me out of the situation

so we need to arrange ourselves in such a way that men who want to attack women don't get the opportunity

IfyouseeRitaMoreno · 03/11/2018 08:42

Interesting, thanks OP

borntobequiet · 03/11/2018 08:47

The article focuses on the physical vulnerability of women so it’s appropriate to mention issues to do with self ID that concern women because they could increase vulnerability.

merrymouse · 03/11/2018 08:47

I just think it’s playing in to the hands of the ‘you think all trans people are dangerous/this is just Section 28) (non) argument.

But the point being made is that physical differences between men and women make women more vulnerable, and these exist regardless of how either party identifies.

OP posts:
IfyouseeRitaMoreno · 03/11/2018 08:54

but actually not admitting it could harm me. we have to live in the real world. I'm not in a film, if a man attacked me, the only thing I've got is my brain, because my body will not be strong enough to get me out of the situation

Yes I think one of the problems in the fight for equality is that people have conflated physical strength with superiority.

Hence why the media is always showing badass women fighting men, as if that proves they are just as good as men.

And it feels like an admission of inferiority to say “we’re physically weaker. Therefore we need protection”.

But of course being physically weaker doesn’t mean inferior. It’s just that’s the line we’ve been fed since we started agitating for equal rights.
So many men have this idea “you want equality but you can’t handle it” in the sense that if we want equality in the intellectual, social and economic fields then we have to be prepared to fight as equals in the physical field.

merrymouse · 03/11/2018 08:55

I'm not in a film

Yes - I had two personal safety sessions at school - one organised by the Suzy Lamplugh trust (rape alarms and practical advice) and one organised by somebody teaching martial arts.

I remember how utterly useless the martial arts techniques were when I tried them on my brother and father.

OP posts:
BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 03/11/2018 09:06

being physically weaker doesn’t mean inferior. It’s just that’s the line we’ve been fed since we started agitating for equal rights

Yes, all that 'we hunted the mamouth' stuff is linked to this isn't it?

I think there are many men who believe that because men are bigger and stronger than women they're intrinsically superior, and somehow that means women can't be CEOs or something

Jordan Peterson's 'I could never respect a man who wouldn't fight me' is also part of it

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 03/11/2018 09:14

It makes me think of the book 'The Postman' by David Brin (not the movie for god's sake)

The book is firmly written from inside the patriarchy box, the women
in the book aren't really people and so on. But if you can over look that (as you have to in much fiction produced by men), it has very interesting things to say about the idea that might is right.

It's set in a post apocalyptic america. Society has crumbled due to a hypersurvivalist militia - 'Holnists', who champion violence and misogyny, with genetically engineered strongmen being automatically superior to everyone else. And because everything comes down to a physical fight, there is no way to over turn that.

anyway - it's a good read!

AncientLights · 03/11/2018 10:17

If Janice must be away, I'm glad they gave us Libby.

I expect Libby Purves does realise that the army, in allowing women to occupy all roles, as is the plan, is because they would otherwise have an issue about transwomen. So male soldier enters the marines, does his soldier thing, decides to transition and can stay in the job. So much better than that awful negative publicity and, besides, I'm sure they will still be able to find suitable reasons for keeping women out of those roles.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 03/11/2018 10:21

I see men are lining up in the comments to give a version of 'if you'd stayed in your place like we told you, this wouldn't happen'. Thereby demonstrating exactly why women need sex based protection, including from all men who identify as women, as every man is Shroedinger's Rapist. The fact men don't like hearing it has no bearing on its truth.

And also missed in this: women should not have to prove beyond all doubt and argument that they have genuine concerns about their safety to maintain their right to women only spaces. Most women are not comfortable with situations of privacy and dignity with men, even their fathers and brothers. Most women want the right to meet apart from men for groups, societies, activities, not just for safety or religious and cultural reasons but because sometimes they just want to be with other women, and a group is different when men and socialisation is not involved. 'No we don't want to' should be enough. Men are sufficiently respected (and their aggressive response feared) that no real attempts have been made on their language or spaces. That tells you a whole lot about equality.

Instead, women are pleading with men to hear them and care about actual bodily safety with self ID, because they know no one will hear or care about anything else less serious. And even their right to bodily safety is seen as something discussion worthy, with 'compromise' expected.

Two years ago I'd have agreed women had pretty much gained equality. My eyes have been massively opened by the GRA stuff. Women are barely even off the starting post. In the GRA game, as many have said, women are not seen as players, women are the bloody ball.

LangCleg · 03/11/2018 11:17

As I read it, she's simply saying that women seeking equality doesn't mean that we should abandon risk assessments aka safeguarding. Which is correct. I wish someone would apply this to the reckless guidance going into schools - gender questioning children should be safeguarded to the levels other children are.

VickyEadie · 03/11/2018 11:51

I see men are lining up in the comments to give a version of 'if you'd stayed in your place like we told you, this wouldn't happen'. Thereby demonstrating exactly why women need sex based protection, including from all men who identify as women, as every man is Shroedinger's Rapist. The fact men don't like hearing it has no bearing on its truth.

Correct.

Also this: As I read it, she's simply saying that women seeking equality doesn't mean that we should abandon risk assessments aka safeguarding. Which is correct. I wish someone would apply this to the reckless guidance going into schools - gender questioning children should be safeguarded to the levels other children are.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 04/11/2018 09:04

Yes reading it again I think I’m being hyper-sensitive. Must turn off my ‘be nice’ switch.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 04/11/2018 09:26

ihaventgottimeforthis

I thought it was an interesting initial take on the article

My first thought was that it was a good article but it was interesting for me to think about whether it could stand on its own

I think it could...but i also think that some things need to be pointed out to readers

Some of the women on here especially would have immediately jumped to self ID, but some people (me Grin) need a 'OMG yes!' moment

Ereshkigal · 04/11/2018 09:36

And also missed in this: women should not have to prove beyond all doubt and argument that they have genuine concerns about their safety to maintain their right to women only spaces. Most women are not comfortable with situations of privacy and dignity with men, even their fathers and brothers.

We need to push this more rather than talking about safety only which many GC people concentrate on. Because it is basically impossible to handwave the privacy and dignity argument away without looking like a dick who doesn't care about women, while the most oppressed narrative can be leveraged against the safety argument.

The amount of arguments I have where men will say some variation of "yes but exclusion based on the possibility of crimes being committed isn't fair to TW". Often while quoting how much more vulnerable they are. But they suddenly lose the stomach for arguing when you make arguments involving rights of women to not have to get naked with men present or see men naked or have them perform intimate care.

Ereshkigal · 04/11/2018 09:38

Instead, women are pleading with men to hear them and care about actual bodily safety with self ID, because they know no one will hear or care about anything else less serious. And even their right to bodily safety is seen as something discussion worthy, with 'compromise' expected.

YY this exactly. Spot on. We need to assert our rights and have a higher bar than not being raped.

FekkoThePenguin · 04/11/2018 09:39

I hope they have finay found her. Her mum has worked so hard to promote safety for women - I wonder what the advice is for when, say an estate agent agrees to meet Miss Smith at a location and goes along alone to find a man who says he is a woman. If she says 'fine' then she may well feel scared and vulnerable - if she says 'no' then when will be dragged through social media as a monster.