Are those with autogynephilia shouting 'TWAW' ashamed of their fetish?

[cockBlocker]

I'm wondering if some of these younger guys who experience AGP (and not gender dysphoria) are insisting that they are women so vehemently because they are ashamed of their fetish? It's been much discussed that the trans rights movement is a men's sexual rights movement when it comes to AGP, but I also wonder if some of the more woke crowd feel ashamed of their kink because they genuinely do want to consider themselves as feminists. In that case, they may be in denial of the sexist reasons why dressing as a woman turns them on and instead claim they are women themselves to legitimise their non-politically correct fetish. Kinks are impulses rooted in social taboos, after all, so it's not surprising if cross-dressing with its sexist undertones becomes more alluring in a time when women have gained more power in society, and it doesn't necessarily reflect misogyny otherwise, just as a woman with a fantasy of being dominated doesn't usually want that IRL. At the same time, people can't bear to have their kinks ridiculed, but the term 'transvestite' (which the heterosexual, penis equipped men tend to be) conjures up quite a comical image due to portrayal in the media, so all the TWAW shouting may also be a pathological re-branding, a way to transgress once again. I know someone whom I think may be behaving like this, so I wondered what anyone else thinks. Sorry if this topic is repeated elsewhere, but I haven't seen quite this take on other threads yet.

Transvestites have been eradicated, what was once something done behind closed doors has become very public under the rebranding "transwoman" which now includes your bog standard AGP and male suffering from gender dysphoria.

It is worth remembering that cross dressing (AGP) is the number one most common paraphilia in sex offenders. Women were not consulted when it became cross dressers became transwomen and then trans women became women.

Who has benefited from this rebranding promoted largely by Stonewall and all political parties?

I absolutely agree with the men's sexual rights element to this, but I was also wondering what other motivations there might be driving the TWAW stance.

It’s not just the younger woke crowd who are in denial. The denial and shame are built into the fetish. The fetish is to think that you actually are a woman. So if you admit that you’ve got a fetish for pretending to be a woman, then you’re ruining it for yourself. Because women don’t have fetishes for pretending to be women.

Can’t say I’m able to wrap my head around it, but that’s what I understood from how Anne Lawrence explained it in her writings on autogynephilia - Anne is an autogynephile herself and did some pretty important work fleshing out Blanchard’s theories.

It could just be my own need not to see this person I'm quite fond of as a misogynist, perhaps I'm making excuses for them in a self-sacrificing, female socialised way.

So if you admit that you’ve got a fetish for pretending to be a woman, then you’re ruining it for yourself.
That makes perfect sense, and also why they claim AGP doesn't exist.

I've seen high-profile TRAs admitting that the thought of being female turns them on, but then they claim that's just normal female sexuality. It isn't - we don't fetishise ourselves, our clothes, the social stereotypes associated with being a woman. With AGPs the focus is on themselves as a fetish object.

That makes a lot of sense, OP.

That really does make a lot of sense OP; I think you might be onto something there.

I can remember reading comments from AGPs admitting they can't be upfront about it as it was, historically, a reason for the NHS to deny treatment - hormones, etc.

Plus, hiding in plain sight by insisting TWAW and forcing compliance with pronouns must be a kick.

But I do think shame, genuine shame, is involved. Hence the binge/purge cycle.

The transwidows thread talks about the duality. Aggressive insistence on TWAW followed by shame and a renewed determination to pack it all in. Until it gradually starts up again and the cycle continues. Public acceptance must be legitimising the binge phase, but maybe it makes the purging more heartfelt?

It's hard for me to see any AGP as woke or even aware of feminism as they mostly seem highly misogynistic. But the transwidows thread gives an insight into how the fetish can be so successively hidden, even from loved ones. So perhaps they can separate the fetish from their general attitude. Not sure about that tho.

I do think there is an element of AGP shame in this and threat of injury of not being validated.
It is worth noting that there are AGPs who absolutely have self awareness and are not ashamed, Like Anne Lawrence, an AGP who did scientific research on the issue and at one point called out of control TRAs out on their bullshit in an article about autogynephilic shame and narcisstic rage.

"Transvestites have been eradicated"

No, they haven't. There are still men who like to dress as women who have no interest in living as a woman or becoming a woman.

I think perhaps it helps to realise that some people can hold many internal beliefs that are not necessarily logical or cohesive with their other thoughts and beliefs. That people can experience the cognitive dissonance of many utterly opposing or contrasting beliefs, schema, at the same time, that that they cannot rationalise or unpick or reconcile.

Most humans have at some level a desire to be accepted and part of a group, not to be excluded or othered. That a normal safety in numbers instinct can be a driver I believe, as well as for the personal validation and the cynical and manipulative behaviours eg paedophiles. Both normal/healthy and unhealthy, motivations can exist simultaneously.

Also as homeStar says, shame and denial. That shame is likely part of what created the fetish in the first place, so it is both abhorrent, but intrinsic.

Normalising of the fetish is perhaps a desire to lessen shame, to 'be an OK person, not a bad person', because 'being bad' reinforces the shame, and experiencing shame may reinforce and stimulate the harmful and fetishised thoughts and beliefs, as a self fulfilling prophecy, a shame spiral. V complicated and powerful.

I do not believe that paraphilias can be experienced without other MH/ personality disorder type issues, so other behavioural issues like acting out and trampling boundaries is bound to be a problem too.

Massive cross posts. Was musing for ages, sorry!

Hello, Transwidow here, STBXH AGP.

I don't think shame as much as opportunity. STBXH, I believe is getting off on being able to "fool" people, there is a massive superiority/narcissism element.

He loves being able to girl talk and dress in public, and be lauded for it. It's a frisson for him that people "don't know" that he's aroused.

It's about power, he get to essentially role play his humiliation fetish in public, and the fawning from women for his bravery adds to his belief that women are inferior, sexual objects to be used. He gets to be simultaneously reinforcing his belief that he is superior as a man, by role playing being a sex object woman.

So STBXH get relief from being a "man" through sexual role play, the pressure of his own internalised and stereotypical gender role (strong/provider etc.)

He performs "female" which gives him this relief, there is a shame element, but it's a bit like Pulp's Common People. He knows he's playing at "shame".

His behaviour, and our reaction reinforces his sense of superiority, as a Male, and his imagination of what Women are.

"men who like to dress as women who have no interest in living as a woman or becoming a woman"

I'm curious. What does "living as a woman" mean for these people if not dressing as and acting out the imagined stereotypical gestures of a women?

My local ‘cross dressers social/support’ club is about to formally disband after many decades of weekly meetings (albeit under different names due to the kind of fractures that take place in all long term social groups).

This is in part, because the person who ran it for many years has sadly passed away (I think they would've been an excellent contact for GC women, and I would’ve approached them myself*) and in part because there just isn’t the demand for it anymore. The club was a place where men could present ‘en femme’, confidentially, one night a week, and keep it seperate from the rest of their lives (although wives, girlfriends and partners were always welcome to attend for free under club rules).

I guess the increasing pornification of society means that people no longer feel the need to keep their kinks seperate - if your partner doesn’t approve, just find a new one on tinder etc.

The club had members from under the entire scope of the stonewall umbrella, but everyone knew how they and others were grouped under it (and it was probably the biggest topic of discussion amongst members) and people tended to form friendships based on this. Some of the transsexual members were definitely subjected to sexual harassment from the more aggressive AGP members, and I think the formal structure of the club/committee helped a lot with minimising that aspect (members who behaved inappropriately can be barred/expelled etc).

The language that exists within the club would now be considered transphobic by SJW - members have no problem with calling themselves Trannies and Tgirls and no one would say TWAW - more along the lines of “some transsexuals can pass as women and the rest of us are part time Tgirls” - it seems bonkers to me that this subculture has been politicised by activists and altered beyond recognition - I really do believe that it is the aggressive AGPs and con artists (the kind who would’ve been subjected to a very beady eye within the club) hijacking the public perception of transsexuals for their own aims.

I have no problem with kinky people, whatever form that kink takes, unless it threatens the emotional or physical wellbeing of non consenting adults or children. I can happily accept that cross dressers exist, that AGP exists - but wearing women’s clothes does not make you a woman. That’s my line. Do what you like, but laws need to be based on reality.

*I would love to be able to talk to this person, who I knew only in their cross dressing persona, but who very much knew they were a man, had remained married to their wife (who knew but no longer took an active interest) for 60 or more years and despite being the hostess of a cross dressing/ts support group for many decades, and being known by a woman’s name by likely thousands of people, had kept it seperate enough that it was not mentioned at all at their funeral.
A seperate memorial was held for trans/CD friends to attend.

current thread re BMJ article by clinicians:
(extract)
"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410257-BMJ-article-We-need-research-to-explore-the-interplays-between-gender-identity-mental-health-and-neurodevelopmental-problems-sexual-orientation-autogynephilia-and-unpalatable-gender-roles

His behaviour, and our reaction reinforces his sense of superiority

I'm a big fan of simplification. But I understand how human behaviour isn't always amenable to it.

So the idea that forcing someone to agree with you renders them inferior and at a disadvantage in your own head, just blows my mind.

Living as a woman

I follow a young American man on twitter who is autogynephilia. He is very GC, very, very self aware and I have enjoyed reading his longer threads. I get the feeling if he could rid himself of his 'kink' he would. He's very interesting without being 'me,me,me'.

Bonions

Kinell

"Trying not to scowl too much or to swear"

Shit - I'm living as a MAN

Better not show this to my DH as it looks like I'm a man too.

I've seen 2 forms of AGP. Not everyone has the same personality type and so when we have a drive it expresses itself differently.

My experience is different from that of birdbandit. I see her ex as having the narc/dominant form, who gets off on overtly controlling women. There is also a sadistic element where he 'spoils' his victim in a ritualistic way, to prove himself superior.

Whereas my ex is narc/submissive. He is generally passive aggressive, terrified of being caught and hid his cross dressing. He would never go out in public wearing women's clothing, not even under his male clothing, in case he got caught.
He uses women as a beard. If women's clothing is found in his room he can explain it away if he has a partner.