Woman's hour today (29 October) 10 am

[ScienceRoar]

There will be a discussion of gender dysphoria. The Twitter grapevine says that Transgender Trend will be represented.

I'm glad someone else sees it that way Charliethefeminist.

In other words, the only way to discuss this is in terms that the trans person present would approve of.

I think it's one of those observations that's hidden in plain sight but actually incredibly astute.

I thought it was extremely well done.

So strange though to hear so much agreement about gender stereotyping and the world we live in being so 'binary' these days and yet still there are so many advocating trying to change individuals rather than the toxic environment

I do realise how little I know about this subject from the medical end

That should make you an ideal person to contribute as there seem to be there are very few medically trained people in the 'gender industry' Almost all those 'Doctors' contributing, including Polly Carmichael are Phds not medical Doctors.

I can’t find a link to today’s program, can anyone provide it? Thank you!

^ I was just going to ask the same thing

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000xww

About 15 mins in

It’s being reviled on some areas of twitter, with accusations of Stephanie not being a valid voice because of lack of medical expertise or personal connection to trans people.

This might just be me being very cynical but so much of this is led by practice in the US where medical doctors have a direct financial interest in creating and keeping patients. It must create a much larger and more secure income stream to have people coming back regularly for check ups and more prescriptions, as against seeing a young person once, and referring them to a therapist who is very unlikely to recommend them to have drug or surgical treatment.

I'm wondering if I might feel ok with embracing "non-binary" as a term. At first, it made me angry and I'd shout of course we are all non-binary, nobody is totally feminine or totally masculine! But actually, maybe we should just all join in with the new speak. I'll identify as non-binary. You can still use 'she' and 'her' for me but I reject feminine stereotypes and will carry on doing my thing (outdoor sports, STEM subjects etc).
Maybe if more of us 'old' feminists did this then the youngsters wouldn't feel so much like 'we don't understand' them?

Just listened - flaming Nora, Polly Carmichael cannot look at the bigger picture if her life depended on it! What a load of drivel she spoke. Very dodgy IMO. I personally felt she was hiding something.

I assumed, as I imagine a lot of people do, that Polly Carmichael was a medical doctor.

I assumed, as I imagine a lot of people do, that Polly Carmichael was a medical doctor

Well, so did I. I would have thought that a doctor practicing in an area prescribing cross sex hormones and puberty blockers should have an in depth knowledge of endocrinology and paediatrics and psychiatry as a bare minimum.

It is not enough to able to follow a pathway that turns a child into an adult that looks like the opposite sex (or not as the case may be). There is such a lot of more in depth knowledge of how this affects their over all system and long term future, and also all the possible combinations of what could go wrong with it.

She's a consultant clinical psychologist. Typical career path to get to that position:

Psychology degree (you can get onto one without having any science or Maths at A level)
Master's degree in a topic related to psychology (not mandatory, but very common)
Work experience in some kind of relevant area, e.g. mental health service, supported housing, addiction service, prison leading (ideally) to a position in the NHS as an assistant psychologist
Occasionally people divert at this point and spend three years plus getting a Ph.D.
Get onto a professional doctoral programme in clinical psychology, funded by the NHS - massively oversubscribed, can take years and years of repeat applications to get on
Three years of work and study on the programme, culminating with a research project
Good job at the end of it more or less guaranteed - but lots of newly qualified clinical psychologists are in their 30s by this stage

None of this qualifies someone to prescribe drugs. That can only be done by a medical doctor (or a very highly qualified nurse in some cases).

PS All qualified clinical psychologists are entitled to call themselves Dr (except the very few left who qualified when it was still a Master's level qualification). Quite a lot would be Dr because of a Ph.D. as well.

It’s being reviled on some areas of twitter, with accusations of Stephanie not being a valid voice because of lack of medical expertise or personal connection to trans people.

Hopefully as this is in response to BBC Woman's Hour more people will become aware of the positions that TRAs take.

This is sunlight.

You may like this exchange

🎃Queen Hatshepsut 👻 #terfsout
‏**@CChinneide**
It doesn’t matter how “reasonable, rational, polite” Stephanie Davies-Arai is; her prejudice against trans people is toxic. She is being facilitated by the BBC to contribute to the spread of her own bigoted assumptions about a very complex issue she has NO experience in.

Ken Stringer
‏*@KenStringer*
Replying to @CChinneide @DrAdrianHarrop
so "reasonable, rational and polite" are also transphobic now? this is very helpful fr all of those sitting on the fence

Starkstaring thank you for the link.

I was pleasantly surprised that this was a balanced, rational, calm discussion and that the presenter was questioning everyone and asking for evidence for their viewpoints from all contributors, so a big improvement from the last WH discussion on trans issues.

I was glad we had biological women (hate to have to use that term, but that’s where we are at for clarity) talking on all points as no males or transwomen are necessary in this discussion. This is how women relate when they are given the opportunity, most women prefer this style of “discourse” and don’t particularly want to be aggressive, interrupting and point scoring which seems a very socialized male way of speaking about contentious issues. I was glad to hear everyone’s point of view clearly expressed and respected.

WH have definitely improved and done a 180 since the last farcical segment on trans issues. I would like to see A LOT more of this however. This should be a frequently discussed issue and everything around transgenderism should be as it is a very new ideology that is gaining ground rapidly and affecting so many aspects of women’s lives; all of which need to be discussed and debated AT LENGTH.

No. 1 is the whole non-platforming and shutting down of women’s voices around these issues that are so important to use and affect us directly.

No. 2 would be the scary redefinition of the words and categories of “woman” , “female” and “lesbian”. Women do not want to lose or redefine the meaning of these words to mean anything other than those of the female SEX. If male-bodied people want to take on the social role of women they need their own category.

It was a better discussion than any I've heard before on WH. I just wish though that Jane Garvey and other presenters would challenge speakers on the concept of "behaving like a female" or "having a female brain." What on earth does that mean?

Every time I hear the term "gender identity" I become more convinced that the person saying it doesn't really know what they mean by it.

But if you sit yourself down and have a big think about what it could mean then beyond stereotypes it just seems to dissolve into nothingness or spirituality.

A young relative of mine is interested in pursuing a diagnosis of adult Asperger's Syndrome. She feels it would explain a number of difficulties she has experienced since childhood.
She was initially referred to a "gatekeeping" adult MH service, where she was told that she could either be referred by her GP (and it would take years) or self refer and take less time.
She got on OK with the psychologist she saw until she mentioned that she had difficulty interacting with a TW at work, who she can't think of as "she" on the grounds that "she" isn't female. He then sneered at her and said something like "oh, you're bringing science into it now are you" (my relative has a STEM degree and a post grad qualification as well) and became very "off" with her.
She won't be using that service again.

The Tavistock is by no means a gung-ho institution hell bent on affirming self-diagnosis and handing out hormones like sweeties (unlike in the US and Canada).

I also expect they have not yet actually appreciated the scale of the problem - they are seeing the tip of the iceberg.

At least Jane challenged and questioned “assigned at birth”.

Also Stephanie was able to show that she was accepting of Lewis’s decisions as an grown adult with a more classic presentation of Gender Dysphoria since childhood.

Stephanie explained she was concerned more about this huge recent rise of pre-teen and teen girls who are being put on a “medical pathway” from a young age with no off ramp.

It’s a start, we need a lot more in depth discussions with parents and professionals and less involvement from the same media-based people such as India. This discussion needs to be of the current real world of young people and the culture they are dealing with, rather than the voices of transwomen who are on chat shows and reality TV. They are different generations and different experiences, let alone different sex!

There is also the concern that the older generation of male-bodied trans people who are pushing teens and young adults to have permanent physical changes while they decide to retain their penis (and have often already been a father before they transition).

Don't forget that Womans Hour have been broadcasting this series about a boy who thinks he is a girl:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04v2ynx

(and noting helpful link to Mermaids on the RH side of that page).

Very pleased to hear critical voices at last.

Born - an older relative of mine is going through the assessment process on the NHS - only waited a few months and got a 'cancellation' at short notice. Waits do seem to be variable.

Helen "mimmymummy" (shudder at the mimmymummy bit - is her kid 2?) From mermaids seems to be leading the "Stephanie isn't an expert" shrieking

Now Helen is forever shouting about this issue. Is she a clinical expert? In fact are any of the mermaids rabble? I thought they were parents of trans kids, with a particular issue to push, rather than qualified independent medical experts... just saying ...