Medical doctors who believe trans women are women.

[ABitCrapper]

I have two medical doctors in my acquaintances who openly and on social media state that TWAW, and share pro-trans anti-women type petitions and articles. One is female. One is "non binary" female

I just don't get it. How can you square that with medical training? Surely they are aware of at least some biological differences between trans, and let us say, natal women?

There was a thread on MN not to long ago about doctors not knowing the difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes. This is kinda crucial when advising patients how to manage their condition. Cos giving them the wrong info could kill someone.

So in the context of seeing that eye opener, over two very common medical conditions, I'd like to tell you I'm shocked that two doctors can't tell the difference between men and women, but I'm not.

I'd just hope I didn't have this misfortune to be treated by them.

Homopathy was hailed by many doctors for years too. Some still believe its effective rather than a load of bollocks and the placebo effect, albeit expensive sugar pills.

One of my relatives is a doctor and really does lack critical thinking skills. Also a complete misogynist and displays complete contempt for women - I have no idea how he is in a caring profession.

I did send him the consultation to fill in, with a message that as a doctor surely he could see that TWAW is wrong. I got back a long rant that the trans movement is the result of feminism - the type of comment you regularly see on the DM website.

You won't find many scientists who believe it...

The existence of God can't be proved or disproved, and is therefore a matter of faith. The physical differences between men and women, however, are readily apparent.

I assume this is about language. Their proper medical word for people with ovaries and XX chromosomes is probably "female". The word "woman" is likely just viewed as some fluffy, malleable, whatever- you- want- it- to - mean layperson's word that carries no scientific or legal standing.

It seems that, in 2018 the word "woman" is to the word "female" pretty much what the expression "down there/noo-noo/hooha" is to the word "vagina". The word "woman" as a descriptor has lost its power.

Sorry derailed thread with previous post.

But on the Dr’s front my GP was about 6, and one asked if I could be taken on his patient. I refuse to see any the others as I’ve noticed the different attitudes in treatment.

My Dr is bloody amazing and worth the 20-30min delay in appointment, cos only one not dismissive, listens and talks to like I’m human giving me A B options, not pushing me out door with handful of pills to make world right.

One in a practice of 6

Although, amusingly and somewhat surprisingly, the wikipedia entry for the word "woman" has been written by someone who has not drunk the Kool Aid. I suspect it was written before "TWAW!!" existed. How long will it be before it gets heavily modified to include people with normal XY chromosomes ×/- penises and feelz?

"The existence of God can't be proved or disproved, and is therefore a matter of faith. The physical differences between men and women, however, are readily apparent."

That doesn't matter if your belief is that 'woman' is a feeling.

"I have no idea how he is in a caring profession. "

He isn't though, is he. He went into it for the reputation and money. Not because he wanted to care for people, that's maybe what he tells others.

I will have to ask my doctor for a prostate exam and see how she reacts. I don't believe many or any of them really believe TWAW, but they're probably terrified of the transborg.

Transactivists will go to any links to cause trouble, even making plausible sounding accusations up out of thin air. Or getting all their friends to make appointments and then pulling a no-show. And of course, leaving horrible reviews everywhere.

I’ve written a number of academic references for prospective medics. The ones who gained entry to medical school were by no means always the ones who would make the best doctors. And a number of people who would have made excellent doctors slipped on one grade/didn’t do so well on interview and didn’t make it, despite being easily academically able enough.

Is it something in the nature of people who go into medicine or does the system discourage analytical thought or have I just been unlucky?

I do think it is the process as @borntobequiet said. At my uni all medics, dentists, and scientists did the same first year. The medics all arrived armed with their excellent a’level results. It rapidly became clear that the majority were very good at sitting down and rote learning a syllabus, and passing subsequent exams. So to start the a’level requirements selects those who can learn and regurgitate without questioning what they have been fed.

When we did do critical thinking exercises they just couldn’t do it. They were given a paper, they could learn it and tell you about it, they just couldn’t see that just because it was written down and had some logic didn’t mean it was correct.

Also the dr hierachy means you don’t question your seniors. They are right. End of. Medicine is at the end of science where mostly the discovery has been done. Years of lab work and experimentation and they are handed the end product in a syringe and told it cures x disease. They don’t study the in vitro work or the clinical trial results and think that if a b or c was changed the results may change too...

What i don't understand is:
I don't think the "woman brain / man brain" thing has been proven ? The top two Google hits contradict each other.
Obviously over time hormones and socialisation would effect the brain but surely this is different from individual to individual?

Some studies of trans women (old school transsexuals) show a part their brain to be different from non disphoric people.... seemingly from birth... but not actually the sex they identify with.

Essentially we need lots more research into this area.

It would be great if that could occur with out insane bullying.

I've seen this situation, also. It's very troubling. VERY. Because I think doctors should be shouting from the rooftops that sex and gender identity are not the same thing, and we cannot change sex.
Some personal hypotheses:

1. Official policies for doctors basically say trans women are women- I think you could get in serious trouble for questioning the mantra
2. Lots of doctors share a similar kind of political philosophy ("lefty" Guardian types so want to be seen as "progressive")
3. They don't think it has anything to do with them, so they haven't thought deeply about the issues
4. They're doing an old-school "doctor knows best" paternalistic thing in somewhere internally acknowledging that sex and gender are different, but just say to lay people that "sex is too complicated" - see for example Dr Webberley saying that sex is tricky, but later that there's two types of bodies..... Which is SEX.
5. They might know but don't want to get into the political nightmare that is this "debate"

Some studies of trans women (old school transsexuals) show a part their brain to be different from non disphoric people.... seemingly from birth... but not actually the sex they identify with.

The studies on transgender people have been done on older children and adults, so there is no proof of anything being different from birth.

There is a local school that has a lot of leavers going to medical school. They are lovely students, but have been aiming for medical school from at least the age of 11. They and their families' focus is on doing what is necessary to get a place. Which means a very narrow focus and little awareness of life beyond school and studying.

I suspect (hope?) they probably believe TWAW means transwomen should be treated the same as women/as if they are women in legal and social situations. I sincerely hope they don’t in clinical situations otherwise there’s going to be some very poor medicine going on.

I am a doctor and I don't believe TWAW. I have been radicalised by mumsnet but would never have believed the more extreme activist claims anyway.

I think that there is a strong pressure to be seen as a supportive and inclusive person as a doctor. This especially afflicts female doctors as you'd expect.

There is also some genuine and well founded fear of opinions on this issue hampering your career. The profession overall isn't that aware and generally considers that the specialists know best. The BMJ has been appalling for publishing uncritical transfluff stuff and there has been no attempt to examine the ethics.

Most of us also have contact with some dysphoric trans patients who are often extremely vulnerable so I think doctors are often thinking of them and their difficulties when it comes to this debate. The autogynaephiles don't come in to see us announcing their fetish - they know what to say to tick the boxes and get a referral.

Absolutely agree with PPs that not all doctors are very bright or natural critical thinkers. I think once you have laid out all the issues and concerns almost all get it and are worried by the situation though.

Somewhat scary as certain reference ranges (haemoglobin at least) are different for men and women. Not medical enough to know what others there are (or how testosterone/puberty blockers might affect it) but certainly a risk of things getting missed using the "wrong/right" ranges...

I’m a retired doctor, and over my 36 years of practice I saw a definite, worrying trend away from critical thinking and initiative, towards blind obedience to memorised treatment protocols and tick box checklists.
When teaching medical students in the operating theatre, I made them work things out themselves from first principles, and it was lovely to see them light up and become animated, enjoying using their brains at last!

One wonders if they paid any attention at all during anatomy, genetics, or physiology lectures in first year at medical school!
Joking aside, there are doctors qualifying now who have done degrees with so few contact hours their knowledge of anatomy is actually in question. Many courses with less than ten contact hours per week.

ConorMcGregorsChin I'm about to book a similar appointment with my own GP. I think I'll book a double appointment in the hope I'm listened to and not just flung a script to the call of "Next".

I have a medical professional in my own extended family (specialist). In the 18 months from when DS1 was born they only referred to him as "the baby" never by his name. I could actually give many more examples of how difficult it is to interact on a personal level with them, but won't for fear of giving away too much identifying info.

They are actually a lovely person I do wonder if medical training forces them to have what I guess is a social disconnect.

I am a Dr who is gender critical. However, I would not state this publicly as the GMC do not agree with me.

oldcrone you are correct. The study was done on adults. I need to find the article and grab the bit about why they concluded this was from birth (trans brains being different).

It was a small scale study and actually I thought interesting. Gender disphoria is real.
It still doesn't make them anything but trans people.

I find it shocking how any medically educated person could hold such literally anti-science views as TMAM and TWAW. Also I would question what are the protections for patients from the personal views of doctors around this area.

This is different from religious beliefs held by doctors. There are clear rules and boundaries around religious belief held by doctors when patients come for information and help.

Like for example doctors can refuse to perform an abortion themselves- and that’s absolutely fine and right that that they have that choice- but the doctor can’t refuse to refer the woman seeking the abortion to another colleague, for fear the colleague might tell her how to get an abortion or the colleague might become one of the legal medical signatories needed to authorise it for her.

Anti choice doctors can’t tell the woman pack of lies about how an abortion will make her infertile, send her mad afterwards or give her cancer or whatever shite they can think of to deter her.

They can’t send her home to ‘go and think about it’ or refuse to perform pregnancy tests and waste her time until she is past the legal time limit to get an abortion.

If they did, it would be an abuse of power and they would get an investigation by the GMC the regulatory body of doctors. If they found against them then presumably they could be struck off.

Likewise if you are a doctor who is really believing in the healing power of prayer, you would be struck off if you decided to offer prayer instead of conventional medicine to your patients.

Because that’s not being a doctor, which involves objectively putting the patients’ interests first.

What’s the equivalent protection for patients around this trans dogma issue?

What does the GMC (doctors regulator) or NMC (nursing and midwifery regulator) do to protect children or vulnerable adults (well, any one of us) from being misinformed by a doctor or nurse who believes that TWAW or TMAM? Patients need to understand very very clearly that if they opt to undergo medical and surgical intervention, this could objectively result in an completely avoidable lifetime of loss of sexual function, loss of fertility and being a permanent patient. All to further an untruth that you can literally change sex. This is not possible. Whatever psychological support is needed to alleviate physical dysphoria of any kind this should be absolutely provided fully and be available without long waiting lists.

What protection (and legal remedy) is there for patients if their doctors’ tweets about TWAW and TMAM spill over into biased discussions about objective reality and achievable results from proposed medical and surgical treatment? What are the protections and legal remedies for patient if there is any biased underplaying of mental health interventions that objectively are needed because the doctor wants to take an ‘affirmative’ approach to a sex/gender dysphoric person’s needs?

There should be very clear statements from regulators about this, just as there are already are for the boundaries around religion and objective medical, nursing or midwifery practice in the best interests of patients.

My specialty is v much about holistic thinking and bigger picture.

It drives me and my colleagues bloody mad how many can't see outside of their narrow box. A lot of the training I have is 'If I do this what will happen, and then what will happen, and then, and then -- so maybe I shouldn't do it at all?' - this blows a lot of doctors minds.

Am finding the newest generation a lot better - they has been a lot of bemoaning how students couldn't do clinical reasoning and perhaps this is starting to show.

Certainly current juniors understand capacity a lot better. No, just because you had 'a chat' and he sounded ok, that doesn't mean this delirious patient had capacity for a very serious procedure.