All roles in armed forces now open to women.

[Ihaventgottimeforthis]

It’s not something I would ever choose to do, in fact I’d err on the side of pacifism and feel very uncomfortable with many of our military campaigns past and present (and probably future too tbh) and think our defence spending is a moral & ethical disgrace, but all that aside (!) this is a big step for equality?

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/25/all-roles-in-uk-military-to-be-open-to-women-williamson-announces

Fitness tests

A lower pass mark for women than for men would result in unlawful direct discrimination against men who are denied a job if they passed the women’s pass mark, but not the man’s;

A fitness test which has the same pass mark for men and women but which fewer women than men are able to pass, could indirectly discriminate against women if it does not accurately reflect the requirements of the role

The testers have to prove that the 20 mile runs, carrying 20kg of kit, bleep tests, press ups and pull ups, are relevant to the job.

There have been challenges to fitness tests under the Equality Act, on this basis. This will be new territory for the Army but familiar territory for other occupations that have had to take a long hard look at themselves and their structural barriers.

They were going to have to allow women to apply for all roles either way. If (when?) self ID goes through women could just identify as men and apply anyway.

@Vicky must be the all arms course then not the 42 week commando course. I stand corrected, sorry.

When it comes to general Army/Navy/RAF we as a family aren't heavily involved in that. We are more on the quieter subtle side of military life iykwim.

I do think it's great that all roles are open, but I don't think all these frothing men spouting about "can't have female SAS" fully understand how actually picky the special forces are and also that what difference will a woman in the Mercian regiment make when they haven't done anything for years that could be considered dangerously operational.

I know some have been out to Estonia and the fringes of the Ukraine but not in a combat role/situation.

I do know men in the Army seem to detest women in their roles, it's shocking and needs to change. I find them immature and illinformed though, they tend to be frothing 20 year olds miss fed information by salty old goats. I do find though more specialist regiments of the Army far more accepting such as intelligence/medical.

RAF is far better and Navy in my experience of spending time with families in those branches for treatment and respect of serving women.

Sadly the BARB test for entry to the Army doesn't seem to include "common sense towards women"...

@coachbombay what is it that makes you say "RAF, SFSG and SF are the busiest operational roles"?

CoachBombay

The Commando course is monstrously tough, of course, and is failed by large numbers of recruits in every troop.

My brother completed it successfully as one of only 17 from an original troop entry of 51.

Because if you look at their deployments they are involved in more.

RAF are constantly with joint US operations flying above the middle east on a daily basis.

3 para have just been deployed to Afghanistan.

SFSG rotations have constant active deployments to areas of the world doing things because they support SF, who are continually operationally busy.

When was the last time the Royal Welsh was deployed to a operation zone for warfare front line roles? Or the Rifles, or the Mercian regiments?

The Navy , RAF and Army support many humanitarian roles all across the globe from training foreign forces to crisis responses such as ebola. But many of these roles were already open to women.

I'm specifically talking about the roles now open to women such as infantry and SF, and that opening them up at a time where they are obsolete roles for operation or can just be told no for no reason.

Infantry regiments are being amalgamated or disbanded as they are no longer funded by the MOD. So one could possibly think is opening up roles to women in companies and regiments that are being shut really that progressive?

posie If (when?) self ID goes through women could just identify as men and apply anyway.

I was actually lying in bed thinking it would be perfect for TW given they already have the male bodily strength and physical attributes. And it'd help the Army meet its equality criteria

don't know where they'd put all their ladythings though, heels, handbags and lippy can get cumbersome when you are womaning correctly

Off the top of my head the only role previously closed to women in the RAF was RAF Regiment, and with the Navy I think it was only submariners that were previously male only Royal Marines and SBS.

Army only roles not open were infantry and SAS.

Actually when you think about it, it's only 6 roles....

That's just me musing though, could be one or two more.

CoachBombay I do know men in the Army seem to detest women in their roles, it's shocking and needs to change. I find them immature and illinformed though, they tend to be frothing 20 year olds miss fed information by salty old goats.

What, like "Colonel Richard Kemp, who commanded British forces in Afghanistan in 2003, [who] claimed that it would cost lives"?

"The presence of even a single woman in a team of men on the front line could lead to divisiveness and undermine teamwork, which in turn could directly cause casualties, he said."

(from the Times article)

Oh so youre only talking about combat operational roles. You should say this because otherwise it implies that hundreds of enablers are not deployed on operations. Combat ops are pretty passé as you've said. It's far more about the engineers these days.

Not that many people would call Op TORAL a genuine operation these days. And flying has been open to women for quite some time.

Interesting that you don't see the existence of infantry regiments as critical to UK security.

A TW would never pass the mental fitness tests.

I was actually lying in bed thinking it would be perfect for TW given they already have the male bodily strength and physical attributes. And it'd help the Army meet its equality criteria hmm

That was my first thought too upon hearing this news. It’s so depressing isn’t it.

Correction:

A TW would never pass the mental fitness tests to get into the 1000 yard stare brigades.

Richard Kemp was a dinosaur when he was serving. He's totally irrelevant now.

A TW would never pass the mental fitness tests.

How so?

Gen yes sorry should have made it more clear I was only discussing the new roles opened up to women. My apologies.

It's not that I don't see infantry regiments as important, it seems to be that the MOD are not funding them or portraying them as important. They have such outdated kit now it's unbelievable where as SFSG/SF have the world's best.

The difference in body armour is shocking, if I were an infantryman/woman in say the Rifles I'd be bricking it needing to wear some circa 2006 body plates.

I personally think infantry regiments are an important part of military history and heritage, but knowing how warfare is going. I personally couldn't send a battalion of 300men and women to get gassed in Syria by nerve agents in minutes and all die a horrific death of suffocation and internal hemorrhages.

I could drop a bomb via a drone and kill a high value target and keep my men and women alive.

Do remember that although women have not been permitted reciousoy to present for selection for a full special forces cap badge, that is not a synonym for women not taking part in special operations at all.

Selection is more about mental attitude and toughness, than it is about brute force physical strength (though e standard for that is gruelling too).

I have to say that mixed sex tanks have never struck me as a particularly good idea. But the Scandewegians have had both all men and all women tanks for sometime, deployed in the same way regardless of sex of crew, and that has worked perfectly well.

I wonder if the first woman to pass through will be a TG?

I'm sure they will. How brave and stunning of them, of course

@ mpsw SRR (fully capped SF) has been open to women for quite some time now. So I do know that women have been involved in SF operations.

MI5 and 6 also accept women, and with no intel, there isn't going to be any operation by burly SBS/SAS men haha.

I don't think many people know how many women are in the above types of roles in the general public.

Trans personnel have not been required to leave the Armed Forces for some time now. There is no bar to either rectuitment or service , and there is a page on the official website about this.

Sorry, my bad. I thought that this announcement marked the opening of full cap badge as BBC are reporting it today as 'women allowed to join SAS for the first time'

(Taking part in special operations is a separate issue, not limited to cap badge)

Sorry if I'm going on a bit of a tangent here. For me it has suddenly been a lightbulb moment of "well there are only 6 or 7 roles the MOD didn't allow women to do, but now they can, which is great. But there are thousands of women in our armed forces that don't seem to be recognised for the work they currently do"

So do we as a society need to move on from the fact women can now have 7 extra job opportunities and yes equality is now there, fantastic! But now turn our eye to recognition of women in those roles.

Again sorry if it's a tangent, I'm a bit frazzled on painkillers after a D&C and recovering at home lol.

Also for anyone who wants to know who/what SRR see below;

The Special Reconnaissance Regiment is a special reconnaissance unit of the British Army. It was established on 6 April 2005 and is part of the United Kingdom Special Forces under the command of Director Special Forces, alongside the Special Air Service, Special Boat Service and the Special Forces Support Group

(Source Wikipedia)

Learning a lot, thanks everyone!

A particular bit that got my goat, inserted neatly at the end, was the reference to 'mothers'.
Why should it be considered worse for mothers to serve than fathers? A family losing their father will suffer just as much as one losing their mother. We need to move away from the stereotypes of parental roles.

The key issue in opening these jobs is the potential. Eg, you can't make OF6 unless you've had regular command. Most regular command jobs are combat therefore you're unlikely to make OF6 if you're a woman.

That structural inequality will cease now and the future holds more for women.

Whether women will ever command a combat unit remains to be seen and will be a whole merit based decision. For those like defrack who think they're smarter than ECAB etc, the standards are the same. Best person for the job, not lower standards for women.

Unless you take the masons into account but let's not go there. My blood pressure is high enough as it is, it's 35 degrees outside and PT starts in 25 min. The same PT as the men do btw. In case it makes you feel safer.