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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

PMQs: Self ID and NDA

68 replies

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 12:33

A question from David TC Davis on the silencing of women on GRA consultation and a question on NDAs about being used by the rich and powerful to protect them from accusations of sexual harassment.

Will try and post Hansard up, when it pops up.

OP posts:
Stopthisnow · 24/10/2018 15:01

WarmWishes“MPs who are not selected may be chosen to ask a supplementary question if they "catch the eye" of the Speaker, which is done by standing and sitting immediately before the prime minister gives an answer.”

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister%27s_Questions

“Supplementary questions are the follow-up oral questions that may be asked, without prior notice, during ministerial question sessions in both Houses. After a government minister has given a prepared answer to a question that they have been given notice of in advance, there is normally an opportunity for one or more further questions to be asked on the same topic.”

www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/supplementary-questions/

As OlennasWimple says MP’s rarely get chance to ask supplementary questions at PMQs. So it is likely they wanted to show that they have opinions on the topic also.

Feminist4 · 24/10/2018 15:04

I don’t think women’s groups represent the majority of women though with regards GRA. There seems to be a tendency to make blanket statements about ‘biological women’ that I know many women don’t agree with.

LizzieSiddal · 24/10/2018 15:09

Does anyone know if David Davis is aware, that whilst the leadership of Women's groups were spoken to, women were not. And that money is being tied up with being open to providing services to TW: a rape centre in Glasgow(?) had money withdrawn recently from CIN, because they wouldn't provide services for men.

WarmWishes · 24/10/2018 15:15

Thanks to the replies to my 'why are they standing?' question!

At least it doesn't mean they wanted to shut him up, although we can't discount that!

merrymouse · 24/10/2018 15:21

I think a big problem is that nobody seems to be clear about how the Equalities Act should work or the interaction of the GRA and the Equalities Act.

If you don't believe that changes to the GRA will affect women, there is no need to consult women. Meanwhile nobody seems to be able to explain what 'gender', 'sex' and 'woman' mean in legislation, or why it is sometimes legal to discriminate between men and women.

Feminist4 · 24/10/2018 15:25

I think a trans women should be able to access a rape crisis centre. Her needs are the same.

Bonions · 24/10/2018 15:29

Women who have been raped often need to recover away from men. Allowing trans women into women’s crisis centres denies safety, privacy and space for healing for some of the most vulnerable women.

Trans women should certainly access similar services but in a way that does not harm women.

TheHarpySings · 24/10/2018 15:30

A TW who is raped should be able to access services which are specialised for Transwomen. Some of their needs will be the same as natal women and some will be different.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 24/10/2018 15:32

A transwoman's needs at a rape crisis centre really are not the same. Transwomen are biologically not women. Raped women do not need to be exposed to men in the building.

The need for trans rape crisis facilities is a separate issue, a service set up and based on the biology of women cannot split its funding to now meet the needs of biological males without their original brief, purpose, clientele and service being radically affected.

See the case of the women's sexual health clinic which has recently had to split into two clinics, one for the very heavy proportion of TW users, and the other for women users. Same funding, now having to cover two totally separate groups, totally separate biological needs. Women using that clinic now have half the service and capacity and staff availability that they used to have. The men's services are happily continuing to run on their original funding unaffected.

Manderleyagain · 24/10/2018 15:35

Bonions is right. It's really important that trans women have services they need if they've been raped. A natal woman's needs may be different to hers though, because for some the presence of any male at all will be harmful in itself and hinder recovery.
It's also really important to provide that for them.

It's not the trans woman's fault and lobbying weight should be put into getting services for them too.

merrymouse · 24/10/2018 15:40

I think a trans women should be able to access a rape crisis centre. Her needs are the same.

They are the same as any person who needs a rape crisis centre, including men, who doesn't mind whether male bodied people will be at the crisis centre. However, they aren't the same as a woman who needs to go to a rape crisis centre where it is guaranteed that there will be no male bodied people.

Why discriminate according to an individual's subjective feelings about gender? Why not just make all crisis centres unisex? It's sometimes necessary to discriminate according to sex. When is it necessary to discriminate according to gender?

OlennasWimple · 24/10/2018 15:49

I'm happy to support the development of refuge and other support services for trasnwomen, I just don't think it should be at the expense of women (there is a pitifully small provision for women as it is) and should not rely on women doing the donkey work to set it up

hipsterfun · 24/10/2018 15:55

This will sound harsh, but it does appear that there’s little will by transwomen to press for their own services and an element of ‘No, mummy do it!’ despite the boundless energy available for social media carry-on

Feminist4 · 24/10/2018 16:04

But trans women aren’t men. So I don’t see the problem allowing them into tape crisis centres.

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 16:10

I think a trans women should be able to access a rape crisis centre. Her needs are the same.

I read something very lengthy on how the needs of many women were very different to other women. By that I mean women. There were specialist centres for woman from ethnic backgrounds in London but as funding was cut they were stopped.

Male abuse victims also have very different needs. And the same is true of trans people. I think the idea that all people who have suffered from domestic abuse have the same needs is incredibly misleading and quite frankly bullshit. They are very vulnerable and have very complex needs that need to be treated with great sensitivity.

The figure I saw last week was that 90 women and 90 children have been turned away in a single day from services due to a lack of availability. I have read of women travelling with children 600 miles just to get a place at a shelter. I've seen how women with large numbers of children have been turned away because there is no space. I've seen how woman with mental health problems have been turned away because staff can not cope with them.

One of the arguments I've seen for trans women being allowed in any shelter, is because its close to where they live. The reality in practice is so many women and children (who need to go to school) can not get into local shelters and are being sent across the country to safety.

If thats the case, at this point, the idea of a specialist centre for trans women only, which specialist services and staff can be located starts to look the best option not just for women but trans women too.

To be brutally honest about it, if you base it on need and risk, you would have to generally prioritise women with children. But in reality because shelters are scared of getting sued for discrimination because of examples in Canada, there is a risk that trans people are 'jumping the queue'. That also has a potentially harmful effect on the women lucky enough to get a space in the shelters, because their special needs aren't necessarily being taken into consideration.

I didn't realise any of this, until doing some reading into the realities of whats happening on the ground.

In an ideal world, yes transwomen should be able to get a spot in any shelter - but those shelters would all have the facilities to accomodate that without any chance of it impinging on women. But they don't so the next best option does come down to a special service for the community.

There are trans only services in other areas operating in this country. I think I saw an article on the BBC about something like a student accomodation on those lines (and those living in there, commented on how it was their safe space from others including women).

I think the whole thing of domestic shelters is based on fallacies and an idealised idea of what they are and what they do. Which only smacks of priviledge and a gross level of ignorance by those professing that everyone has the same needs.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 24/10/2018 16:13

But trans women aren’t men. So I don’t see the problem allowing them into tape crisis centres.

We're aware you think that. You don't need to repeat it. What you need to do is provide an adequate rationale that trans needs should be met but women's should not.

And in any case, this thread is about a question asked at PMQs, which mostly spoke about intimidation and threats to women's free assembly. Got anything to say about that?

Babdoc · 24/10/2018 16:15

You don’t see the problem? Women rape victims do not want male bodied people in their crisis centres or refuges. 80% of so called trans women have a penis, and all of them are men, however they “identify” or dress up.
Acutely traumatised women who have suffered the most appalling form of male violence deserve to have their safety, dignity and privacy respected, and be treated in an all female area. All women can tell that trans women are actually men - our senses are trained from childhood to assess the risk of assault and to distinguish men from women as potential predators. Why would you want to stress out a rape victim? Do you lack all empathy for women? I wonder why that might be...

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 16:16

www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2017-10-16/a-system-at-breaking-point
16.10.17 Domestic Violence
Revealed: Thousands of vulnerable women turned away as refuge funding is cut

This is worth a through read.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 16:16

thorough

OP posts:
LizzieSiddal · 24/10/2018 16:17

But trans women aren’t men. So I don’t see the problem allowing them into tape crisis centres.

That's your opinion, it is not the opinion of millions of others.

AngryAttackKittens · 24/10/2018 16:25

It's also not the subject of this thread, so how about we ignore attempts at derailment?

AngryAttackKittens · 24/10/2018 16:26

Back on topic - it appears that Theresa May knows what a woman is. She was also clearly well prepared for that question, which is interesting.

PineappleSunrise · 24/10/2018 16:27

That "system at breaking point" article is revealing and horrifying, Red.

Spasm0dic · 24/10/2018 16:30

I think someone might be bored and so is devoting their time to shit stirring and deflection.
I am glad the question was asked. Was it dd’s first question or second, because the first one is pre-vetted?

LangCleg · 24/10/2018 16:33

Back on topic - it appears that Theresa May knows what a woman is. She was also clearly well prepared for that question, which is interesting.

Yes. The waffle was rehearsed rather than panicked.

Still, she committed someone at the ministry to meet Davies, which is a good thing.