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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is the word woman being eroded in other countries?

75 replies

PerverseConverse · 22/10/2018 18:04

We are currently fighting for the right for the word woman to mean woman in the UK and I'm wondering if this is happening in different countries and different languages? In the last week I've seen woman spelt womxn so not only is the meaning being changed but the spelling. Is this peculiar to the UK and the English language or is it happening elsewhere and if so what are the new words for women that include transwomen?

I hope I've explained what I mean!

OP posts:
GraceTheDisgrace · 22/10/2018 23:24

GulagsMyArse So the communists (the party that my DH and I support incidentally) said the following in Parliament when the issue was being (barely) debated:

(Sorry it's so long, but I find it quite interesting, so I thought I'd include a sizeable chunk of what they said.)

"An individual's right to resolve an incongruence between his officially recorded sex and the sex to which he feels that he belongs, needs to be based on objectively scientific criteria. And the institution of a scientifically evidence-based evaluation as well as social support measures not only do not infringe on his individual rights, but rather make the exercising of these rights actually possible.

"The proposed bill moves in the opposite direction, because it rejects even the most minimal social prerequisites in favor of personal choice and the right of self-determination of the individual.

"Individual, subjective experience is made absolute to the detriment of collective experience, in the rejection of objective reality itself, given that the sole criterion is simply, the experience of each individual. Such an obscene distortion of objectivity opens the way for the disfigurement of even the very meaning of 'rights' at all.

"A series of biological facts, such as sex, but not only, are associated with the recognition of rights, and with one's access to those rights. For example, the age of a person - which I would like to assume we can all accept as an objective fact that is not subject to self-determination - is connected to the right to the pension, under conditions of course which thanks to the currently dominant politics [neo-liberalism, basically] are continuously deteriorating.

"The state's coverage of prescribed medical exams is associated with age, as with sex.

"Much more significantly, individual and social rights must be assigned on the basis of biological facts.

"We seek to defend, for example, the need for protective measures for women in the workplace. Hard-won rights such as these have, today, been cancelled. With the rejection of sex as an objective fact and the consideration of it as something that relies entirely on the desire and self-determination of each individual, we are moving even further away from that need to produce, to recognize, and to protect rights on the basis of sex.

"Would anyone want to defend the right of a parent not to vaccinate his child? If the criterion is the desire of the isolated individual, whatever knowledge each family has, personal experience, the opinion and position of the parents, then we have to accept not only that the vaccination of a child has to fall entirely under the choice of the parents, but also to understand this reality as a 'right'. But if we make the criterion 'scientific knowledge and the collective experience of society' as it relates to the benefits of vaccination, then the concept of the 'right' takes on new meaning. The right refers now to the right of all children to the protection of vaccination, free of charge and with the responsibility of the state that vaccines be proven safe and effective, but also as the right of parents to be kept informed in a responsible fashion about vaccination, including its necessity and its benefits.

"The government with this piece of legislation has as its goal to unhook individual rights from collective social rights, from financial, social, and political conditions. No individual right is guaranteed outside of collective rights; the development of one's self does not happen outside of society; nor can it be left to parental choice.

"The government and the other parties prioritize the same old bourgeois view that proclaims individual responsibility, individual competence, and choice as the greatest human right, with an aim to dissolve and do away with the non-negotiable, ecumenical character of the societal right, on the altar of Individualism.

"Especially in an era when a whole series of collective social rights are being torn asunder, in labor, in education, in healthcare; bourgeois authority and its tools see particular profit from the development of obstacles to consciousness raising for the need for class struggle for modern rights, for everyone of both sexes.

"They are attempting to wall off the only road to change our social reality, which road would be, the overthrow of the exploitative relationships of production."

GraceTheDisgrace · 22/10/2018 23:37

Manderleyagain I haven't seen any evidence that 'gender identity' exists as a concept outside of woke LGBT circles here in Greece. We don't have a word for 'gender', instead we say 'social sex' -- which, I have to say, I think is somewhat protective, in that it is a constant reminder that gender roles are socialized, rather than biological.

Most comments on articles about transgender that I've seen here include plenty of completely uninitiated people of both sexes instinctively calling out the idea of 'pink means girl' as regressive and ultraconservative.

traceyracer · 23/10/2018 00:13

I'm not following the whole "womxn" thing, and I don't even know which of the two sides is using it

OldCrone · 23/10/2018 00:20

GraceTheDisgrace
That's a really interesting view about how individual rights can impact on rights for the whole of society, and they understand what this is doing to women's rights as well.

Just one question about the words for sex and gender. Is there no separate word for 'gender' in the grammatical sense in Greek? Same question for deepwatersolo about German.

I find this idea of gender being used as a synonym for sex really odd. For me, gender has always been a grammatical term.

wigglybeezer · 23/10/2018 00:33

Just to clarify, I don't think the general public in Scotland are anymore convinced than in England and Wales, it's the Scottish Government, they don't really have enough to keep them busy and therefore have more time to spend on virtue signalling, proceedings and personalities are generally so dull nobody can be bothered paying attention to what they get up to.

IdaBWells · 23/10/2018 00:41

The fact that without the language transgender identity does not exist in the same way in other countries and is not such a threat to women, surely points even more to it being an ideology or at least an identity NOT rooted in biology.

It is a rare issue that can ignite fury on the right and left. Those that seem most vulnerable are those who are wishy-washy in the middle and do not have a well developed concept of different ideologies and political ideas (and the history of such) as that helps with critical thinking. Having a void in knowledge leaves them vulnerable to an ideology that emphasizes “being nice” and “being on the right side of history” not wanting to be a meanie the wishy-washy assent without analysis.

GraceTheDisgrace · 23/10/2018 00:59

OldCrone I think precisely because Greek is an inflected language with three grammatical genders (feminine, masculine, neuter), it really doesn't make sense to adopt the word "gender" for this purpose. So we use the word "sex" for biological sex, and we say "social sex" for what we call gender in English. However on LGBT-friendly type websites they've started talking about this stuff in new ways, borrowing phrases like "identity of sex" (gender identity) which they define as one's internally perceived sex. But again, we're stuck with the word 'sex' and everything will always come back to this word.

If I knew any trans people in person I'd ask them how this impacts their understanding of transness - is it really just about clothes and haircuts or do they buy into the idea that there is a biological basis (ladybrain etc) for being trans? I simply don't know. Unfortunately Greece is a quite homophobic society so mostly what I've seen happening (via the media) is young lesbians and gay men who use transgender as an escape hatch.

EBearhug · 23/10/2018 01:06

Fräulein and Mädchen are both German words for girl, but because of the -lein and -chen endings, which are always neuter, they are neuter nouns, not feminine. I really struggled to get my head round this when I was first learning German, how could girls not be feminine gender nouns? It seemed totally illogical to me. (Then a classmate pointed out that if you use neuter nouns only by making everything diminutive, you only had to learn one set if endings for singular, plus plural endings, which could be useful in an exam...) i see it could create a different mindset. I may ask one of my German colleagues about this tomorrow.

There's a book called something like Through the Language Mirror, can't remember the author off-hand. Anyway, in one section, it talks about gendered nouns and how it affects adjectives typically used, so el ponte (Spanish bridge, masculine) is often strong and sturdy, but die Brücke (German bridge, feminine), may be elegant. Of course, there's a whole other argument over whether particular adjectives should be seen as masculine or feminine, but the point was that the gender of words did have some effect on how the thing was perceived.

How that reflects on trans opinions, I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if how strongly gendered a language is has some effect on how trans issues are seen, or at least sheds a different light on it all.

Turph · 23/10/2018 01:26

GraceTheDisgrace
Your long post was very interesting, thank you. It's good to know others have considered the wider societal implications and it's possibly a good angle for us too.

deepwatersolo · 23/10/2018 06:22

Gracethedisgrace in grammar you will talk about male and female words. And (grammatical) male and female sex. I mean ‚Geschlecht‘ (,sex‘) in German is so multifaceted it can even mean ‚House‘ (like the House of Saxon Coburg).
I sure wonder if that would make it easier or harder to ‚reeducate‘ people into ignoring biology, if efforts were made?

EBearhug I am not sure I agree that the grammatical sex of a word impacts how we perceive it in German. Force and violence are female words, the dance is male. Yet, the ‘traditionally gendered German head‘ would attribute force and violence to what men do, and a dance to a typical woman‘s activity.

Galvantula · 23/10/2018 06:47

Women in the UK (apart from Scotland) are the ones fighting the strongest

Nah this is crap.

Women in Scotland are in exactly the same boat. The 'consultation' was sneaked past just like the UK government tried to do.

Anyone I've talked to about this is equally wtf about the whole thing.

It appears that only politicians and maybe v young woke folk are into this shite. I'm a long way from being a student so don't know many young one

Galvantula · 23/10/2018 06:52

Sorry typed all that then the page messed up.

Not sure why Scotland has gone daft on this though.

We get essentially the same media up here, it's not some weird wilderness with no electricity or t internet Wink

There's been practically zero on the news until last week, when it was discussed on radio etc and appeared more in the papers.

deepwatersolo · 23/10/2018 06:57

But, you know, thinking about it, I actually believe the primary takehome message is that differences in language and words do not change so much, actually.

The experience of German women throughout the ages is pretty much comparable to that of British women, owned by men, their reproductive capacities tightly controlled... And what changed that were also not words but material reality, like wars, where women needed to run the war economy without a mansplainer at their side because those were busy killing one another in the battlefield, and then reproductive control via the pill...

This is also, why I do not believe that current attempts by the Pomo crowd to destroy language will prevail. Material reality will always reassert itself. And there is no way to change reproductive capacities and detacht them from sex in a sustainable manner.

NeurotrashWarrior · 23/10/2018 07:16

I'm in the US, small woke city. The progressive organizations are using womxn. But not mxn-that stands for Mexican.

I actually laughed out loud (in a black mirror kind of way) to this.

NeurotrashWarrior · 23/10/2018 07:24

To add my two penneth worth; Newcastle and surrounding areas are still fairly sure what women are, pools that had separate sex changes definitely still do, separate sauna times and the council even have a set of city wide women's only physical activity sessions. studentsville is likely to exist on a different plane I have no idea about them but both universities are medical studies heavy.

Dunno about the furore at Durham, but I do actually imagine it was again a small pocket of wokeness.

Having said that, Harrop doesn't exactly retain my faith in that area...

NeurotrashWarrior · 23/10/2018 07:25

But the north east is generally about 15 years behind everyone else...

PerverseConverse · 23/10/2018 08:17

Seems like it's just the UK then. Maybe no other country would tolerate this nonsense.

OP posts:
Galvantula · 23/10/2018 08:19

The thing is no one has really been asked about changes, so we've all been going about oblivious only to find Girl Guides, Swim England etc changing rules. (It was Man Friday that got me into this)

The Scottish Government have actually paid a trans lobby group to lobby them FFS. And swallowed it wholesale. Scottish Trans Alliance get most of their funding from the government.

AngryAttackKittens · 23/10/2018 08:24

I also have been to Malta and though it's been a while I really can't picture it as being a hotbed of trans activism. That ruling would impact how many local residents? Maybe 1 or 2 at most? So clearly that's not who it was intended to benefit.

AngryAttackKittens · 23/10/2018 08:25

Oh, I dunno, Canada seems to be the farthest down the path to complete insanity.

theredjellybean · 23/10/2018 08:33

Are there any countries except Iran that insist on full transitioning before you get a gender reassignment certificate or its equivalent?

transdimensional · 23/10/2018 08:59

theredjellybean yes, a list of countries that have systems for applying for a new legal gender/sex is at assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/710998/t491-eng.pdf Many do require surgery, though some of the info in thus document is presumably out of date, e.g. Denmark

perverseconverse you must mean just the UK as far as Europe is concerned? But I still fear other countries will catch up in time. US trends spread a bit quicker on average to other native English-speaking countries than to elsewhere. But there have been many changes, some positive, that have begun in the US and UK and spread. The US and UK gave women the vote a long time before France, Spain or Switzerland, and have adopted gay rights much quicker than Germany or Italy. And the US and UK also led the way on, for example, neoliberalism.

Igneococcus · 23/10/2018 09:02

I have seen the term gender used more in Germany recently but exclusively by people who have a background in social sciences.
I haven't seen much discussion about this in Germany at all but Bento, the terrible Spiegel magazine aimed at younger readers, has the occassional article about non-binary, all totally supportive and unquestioning of course.

deepwatersolo · 23/10/2018 09:03

Are there any countries except Iran that insist on full transitioning before you get a gender reassignment certificate or its equivalent?

I read something about Italy, where some post SRS transsexual (!) had problems getting the paperwork changed, and he sued and won about a decade back, but I do not know the current state.

In Austria, the state was sued and lost years ago, when they refused to give somebody the certification who was intact (you need a lenghty procedure to get it recognized, still). In Germany they apparently did it voluntarily and are also more lenient about the procedure.

I found it interesting that a country could be forced by lawfare to forgoe SRS as a prerequisite for a reassignment certificate. Maybe women should start doing lawfare, too.

Igneococcus · 23/10/2018 09:11

Are there any countries except Iran that insist on full transitioning before you get a gender reassignment certificate or its equivalent?

I have a female to male transexual friend in Germany who went through a lengthy process including medical and psychologist assessments and hormones and surgery. He is now legally a man and married to a woman he met before he transitioned. What I don't know is if the hormones and surgery (hysterectomy and mastectomy because of the increased cancer risk due to hormones) were necessary to go through and complete the legal process.

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