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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is the word woman being eroded in other countries?

75 replies

PerverseConverse · 22/10/2018 18:04

We are currently fighting for the right for the word woman to mean woman in the UK and I'm wondering if this is happening in different countries and different languages? In the last week I've seen woman spelt womxn so not only is the meaning being changed but the spelling. Is this peculiar to the UK and the English language or is it happening elsewhere and if so what are the new words for women that include transwomen?

I hope I've explained what I mean!

OP posts:
theredjellybean · 23/10/2018 10:17

Thank you everyone who answered my question.
I have peaked some time ago but now cemented in my view that genuine trans individuals who have gender dysphoria and have committed to transition and gone through with it.. Well they are welcome, welcome to share my female space, welcome to a place on a female only award list... Or male if transitioned that way.
Anything else is merely indulging someone's own fetish, whims, perhaps nefarious intentions and no, you do not get to stick on a frock and get to go in my changing rooms

Trousered · 23/10/2018 10:23

I posted this on another thread, it covers the sale of ID in Malta. It really isn't a human rights issue there, unless you think money laundering is a human right of course.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bnb6vc/mediterranean-with-simon-reeve-series-1-episode-1

I doubt many people buying ID in Malta even go there, never mind use a changing room, they just get their fixers to find a notary to make the declaration and bingo, a female ID to set up a shell company.

bluetitsaretits · 23/10/2018 10:27

Just want to second what other posters have said about Scotland -the Scottish consultation was snuck through under the radar before the general public was aware of what's going on. It was distributed via LGBT groups mainly, almost nobody I know knew about it. It has been kept VERY quiet and still lots of people have no idea.

The Scottish government, councils, schools etc were a long way down woke road before the public was aware. They are very keen to be seen as 'progressive' (in contrast to the 'English Tories') despite the fact that in my experience most people (around my area at least) are very -"ehem"- old fashioned in their views. Sexism, racism and homophobia are fairly rife here so I don't believe for a minute that the Scottish people in general buy into woke think. I am really worried where this will lead here.

I really believe that the situation in England would be the same if it weren't for the hard work of the amazing long term posters here on MN- without you it would all be sailing through unchallenged.

QuinionsRainbow · 23/10/2018 11:30

Sorry to be a bit dim, but how exactly does one pronounce womxn ? And what about the other standard English words that already contain an "x"? e.g. axis, box, cox, doxie, exit, fox, g? , hex, i?, j?, k?, lax, mix, ox(en), pyx, quixotic, r?, sex, toxic, uxorious, vex, wax, xenon, y, z,?

GulagsMyArse · 23/10/2018 11:53

GraceTheDisgrace thanks for that, sorry its taken me a while to get back to the thread.

They get it!! "The government with this piece of legislation has as its goal to unhook individual rights from collective social rights, from financial, social, and political conditions. No individual right is guaranteed outside of collective rights; the development of one's self does not happen outside of society; nor can it be left to parental choice.

Trousered · 23/10/2018 12:25

"They get it!! "The government with this piece of legislation has as its goal to unhook individual rights from collective social rights, from financial, social, and political conditions. No individual right is guaranteed outside of collective rights; the development of one's self does not happen outside of society; nor can it be left to parental choice."

The power of corruption is overwhelming in many countries. Greece is a Schengen gateway country who also sells citizenship and ID.

Destroying social cohesion is not even on the radar of the sociopaths getting governments to do their bidding. They don't need it, so it's of no importance.

OldCrone · 23/10/2018 12:39

I think precisely because Greek is an inflected language with three grammatical genders (feminine, masculine, neuter), it really doesn't make sense to adopt the word "gender" for this purpose.

I feel the same about English. As you say, gender is masculine, feminine, neuter. Sex is male, female. Having first learnt about gender in the linguistic context, where an inanimate object has a gender, but not a sex, I find it difficult to see gender as anything to do with sex.

I think the 'sex' and 'social sex' thing actually makes more sense, as a distinction between the terms is being made. What seems to be happening in English is an interchangeable use of the words sex and gender, conflating them until the distinction is lost. See the recent government consultation document on GRA reform for an example.

GraceTheDisgrace · 23/10/2018 12:57

Greece is a Schengen gateway country who also sells citizenship and ID.

I'm not contesting this but this is news to me! I'm not a citizen here and I've been advised that applying is an expensive process that is very likely to be turned down repeatedly without any real justification. There is a golden passport type situation where for 200,000 euros or so investment you can get residency (not citizenship). I suspect it is mostly Russian nationals who do this.

It would certainly be very interesting to see in a few years who has changed their legal sex designation, and if they are really citizen-residents or not.

It has occurred to me that some of the EU programs that were intended to fund 'woman-owned businesses' could easily be scammed in this way. I know a woman who used one of these to start a small business and can very easily imagine men feeling entitled to these funds.

transdimensional · 23/10/2018 13:06

According to www.dailydot.com/irl/womyn/ the term "womxn" was coined to specifically include trans women, since an earlier coinage "womyn" was associated with "terfs".
The article says that the uncertainty about how to pronounce "womxn" is a good thing because it adds to the word's air of mystery. Lol.
It mentions "Latinx", which is a coinage intended to be gender neutral between "Latino" and "Latina". I am not sure whether this is generally accepted, but I was told that Latinx is pronounced Latinex with -ex. This is of course wholly contrary to the principles of English spelling, which admittedly are known for their inconsistency but point very clearly to "latinks".
Anyway, if the "ex" principle is applied to "womxn" it gives us "wummexen" or "wummexin". Alternatively perhaps it is just pronounced the same as the words "women" and "womyn" are.

Trousered · 23/10/2018 13:07

200,000 Euros is a few kilos of cocaine.

GraceTheDisgrace · 23/10/2018 13:14

This is of course wholly contrary to the principles of English spelling, which admittedly are known for their inconsistency but point very clearly to "latinks".

Not only that, but Spanish speakers (obviously relevant in any discussion of 'Latinx') have repeatedly pointed out that it makes no sense in Spanish, can't be pronounced in Spanish, and erases actual Spanish language and speakers despite supposedly attempting to be about them.

If I'm not mistaken, we're meant to pronounce "womxn" as "women", where the /x/ is some sort of hieroglyphic basically.

InionEile · 23/10/2018 18:13

The use of ‘Latinx’ is my favourite example of the trans agenda gone mad. It’s becoming mainstream to use this here in California and I find it utterly ridiculous. Spanish requires gendered adjectival endings, a or o. In English we do not use gendered endings so the correct word for Latina/Latino in English usage would simply be ‘Latin’. At some point, however, that word became associated with prejudice, used only by terribly ignorant people who didn’t speak Spanish and didn’t know that Latina/Latino was more accurate.

So now we are expected to use Latinx - even though it breaks Spanish grammar rules, is almost impossible to pronounce in Spanish (‘Latin-equis’??), is not used in Spanish speaking countries AFAIK and there is a perfectly functional non-gendered equivalent word in English. Actually two such words - ‘Hispanic’ or ‘Latin’.

It’s amusing to me that all these woke English-speakers in the US are scrambling to find non-binary vocab for words that do not even need to be gendered in English anyway.

If Spanish speakers tell me that ‘Latinx’ is now accepted usage in Spanish speaking cultures, then sure I’ll use it but until then i’m sticking with ‘Hispanic’.

boatyardblues · 23/10/2018 19:55

This thread is everything I love about Mumsnet. Some digging, a touch of tinfoil/conspiracy theory, some political theory, grammar pedants comparing notes, pooled expertise of non-UK domiciled posters and a rough estimate of how much cocaine €200k will buy you. Simply marvellous! Star

Iused2BanOptimist · 23/10/2018 21:03

Agree Boatyard 

2rebecca · 24/10/2018 08:46

Agree that in Scotland self ID potential changes were snuck in and the public consultation poorly publicised. That's what got me involved in feminism again. Most Scots think it's nonsense. Our new cycle sports centre was built with 2 unisex symbol non cubicle changing rooms. The first thing that happened when it opened was that stickers were placed over the male figure in one and female figure in another as no one wanted to get their kit off in mixed changing rooms. The males participating in female sports is met with incredulity that such unfairness is allowed.

FekkoTheLawyer · 24/10/2018 08:48

It was news to my sister in Scotland and she doesn't live down a well! Sneaky bastards.

Manderleyagain · 29/10/2018 15:42

Gracethedisgrace I've been thinking about your post by the communist party upthread. Even a middle of the road Liberal like me can see how right they are about how this individualistic ideology is in opposition to anything collective. I haven't seen these arguments made in any length, or referred to often. I wonder if it is possible to distribute this more widely eg. on twitter or something (I'm not on twitter so can't do it)? People don't know this is happening in Greece.

It has struck me how strange it is that people for whom being a socialist is important to their public profile or self-image (thinking of Owen Jones and others) are so fully signed up to this world view, which looks to me like a high point of modern individualism.

GraceTheDisgrace · 29/10/2018 22:03

Manderleyagain Sorry in advance that this is so long.

I'm unfortunately not on twitter and I don't know how well our situation here was reported elsewhere, I and my local GC friends were flabbergasted tbh with how quickly and quietly it was rammed through, in an environment of complete ignorance as to its implications. The media coverage dealt entirely with trans boys, with ZERO discussion in the mainstream media about the implications for women. In fact just about the only serious point for discussion seemed to be whether age 15 was a good cut-off for this.

The only vocal opponent besides the Communist Party was the Orthodox Church which took the line that we have to show trans people compassion but God doesn't make mistakes etc. In other words, the whole thing was EXACTLY what TRAs love to see: it's dealt with as an issue of progressivism and tolerance; any argument against is seen as bigoted and right-wing; and no coverage was given to the communists, who are (as always) overlooked as irrelevant hyperacademic fuddy duddies who only deal in theoreticals anyway.

However -- national Communist parties do tend to consult each other and promote a cohesive ideology. It would not surprise me if other countries' national communist parties had the same take on this issue. (Fringe anticapitalist parties here in Greece supported the TRA side, btw.)

Unfortunately for PR, our Communist Party is also opposed to same-sex marriage, making it an easy target for anyone to accuse of bigotry. The party's objection to same-sex marriage is an objection to state-sanctioned marriage as a requirement for social protections in general. For example they say that women remain in marriages with violent husbands in order to maintain access to instruments like medical insurance -- the stance of the Communists is that rather than letting same-sex couples use each other for medical insurance, everyone should have medical insurance regardless of marital status.

It's this refusal to engage in the liberal system altogether, and rejection of hypocrisy, that gets us (I support this party) attacked as "homophobic" when in fact what we are is anti- "marriage as a prerequisite for social support like widows' pensions and medical insurance". But you can see clearly I think the potential for us to be written off as bigoted toward the entire LGBT. (And there is more to it than just this, which I could go into, but anyway, the basic idea is that our objection to passing individual pieces of 'progressive' legislation is that these do nothing to undermine or overturn a very coercive and unequal social structure, and that is the actual aim of the party so...)

I do want to say, without wanting to betray my GC credentials, that Greek society may have some built-in protections against this going completely haywire, at least in the short term and on a large scale. Transsexuals are housed with other transsexuals in a dedicated prison ward, not with women, and I haven't seen any evidence that this is due to change. UK style toilets where multiple people are using stalls separated by flimsy dividers are rare here. We never had Girl Guides and girls' schools and the like to begin with, as Greece went to unisex everything in the 70s from what I know. There is no changing clothes or showering for physical education class, and gyms are hard-up enough for cash that they would never want to alienate half their members to satisfy one member, wrt access to women's changing rooms. (I have belonged to 6 gyms in Greece and I am relatively confident that none of them would have risked losing their female members over this issue. We don't have franchise gyms here, they rely on personal relationships in their own communities.) We don't have an NHS. There has been no attempt to change language outside of hyperwoke LGBT circles. Absolutely no one thinks that TWAW (afaik), (although they do usually assume they're gay, which masks the dangers).

In other words, I'm not going about in fear due to this changed law, because Greek society for all its flaws does seem to operate with a degree of common sense currently absent from the UK, CA, and USA.

Purely anecdotal but in the 10 years I've lived here, I've never come across a trans person before (and I've lived in 5 different cities in that time, including the two largest cities in the country). DH worked in a high school for years and there was never even one trans student in all that time.

Perhaps one reason the LGB has supported this is that it would provide a path for same-sex couples to legally marry.

(continued in next comment)

GraceTheDisgrace · 29/10/2018 22:03

(continued from previous comment)

I'm sorry this comment is so bad and pointless. It didn't address what you said, it was just me thinking out loud about what's happened here. I do agree with you that the 'collective approach' makes a great deal of sense coming from the Communist Party, but I have to point out that the party that rammed the damn legislation through in the first place was the "Coalition of the Radical Left", so .... ya know. Confused

I have been so intensely focused on what's going on in the UK and elsewhere that I haven't even been paying attention to the news in Greece lately, so I don't even know if we've had any really egregious cases to come out of this (like -- large-scale avoidance of mandatory male military service, or men taking funds intended for women-owned businesses, etc.) I need to start paying attention, I just find it so tedious to read through LGBT-related media now that it's so heavily dominated by genderist ideology, and nearly everything is just translated from American media anyway (so, they brainlessly repeat "suicide rate!" type blather which not only is false in its own context, but has absolutely no relevancy to Greece whatsoever).

Here in Greece, the only news story I can find at the moment is about how a TW got rejected from Greece's Next Top Model because the rules are: it's for women. (None of the famous TW murders and suicides happen here, so this is their big human rights issue I guess.)

I tried to find an article from Greece addressing all this stuff from the collectivist angle that interests you, and I'll link the Google Translate version here... sorry, it's a bit rough to fight through the translation, but I think if you work at it you will get the point! The man who wrote it is a historian who has historically been associated with the Greens and the Radical Left. His main question is "why and how on earth did the Left ignore the feminists on this???"

My own translation of one notable paragraph:

"At issue for us is the fact that an approach of 'alienation' which has been rejected by serious feminists has become the government's official line! And this is directly linked to transactivists' ability to influence government decision-making, treating every alternative view in a patronizing fashion. And indeed, without any input from society at large, not even from within the same political realm as the party in power itself, which will be called upon to support these decisions."

translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Ftvxs.gr%2Fnews%2Fegrapsan-eipan%2Fdiemfylikotita-kai-sxetikopoiisi-tis-fysis&edit-text=&act=url

VickyEadie · 29/10/2018 22:21

GraceTheDisgrace - excellent posts, very informative. Thank you.

categed · 29/10/2018 22:53

Women in the UK (apart from Scotland) are the ones fighting the strongest

We didn't know. But those of us who now know are in shock and letting others know at some point the Scottish Government will need to answer questions about this and the way it has been done.

GraceTheDisgrace · 29/10/2018 22:55

categed - we didn't know either. The TRAs are taking advantage of the naivete of countries like Greece where people are completely absorbed by apparently bigger crises to push this through in order to tip the balance so that the holdouts are easier to convince. The fact that countries like Greece capitulated without a fight should never be used as ammunition by the TRAs but it will be, I am certain.

Manderleyagain · 19/11/2018 09:31

Gracethedisgrace Really interesting posts thanks.
The communist party here has come out against self id and for keeping sex segregated sexes too. There is an internal logic to communists having a materialist approach to this.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3427589-I-think-Ive-found-a-party-I-can-vote-for

Manderleyagain · 19/11/2018 09:45

The google translated article also makes a link to the transgender movement as ' the selfish intention of the individual to dominate nature ' which is a good point I hadn't thought about before but it's obvious once its pointed out. I'm not saying that individual trans people are selfish because of the medical interventions they need, but as a set of political ideas it is one where human dominion over nature is taken to the extreme (if you think of action for trans health demanding free access to hormones and training to be able to do surgery on each other for example). It's surprising the ideology gained such traction in the green party when you look at it like that.

There are some funny translations in that article!

Bienchen · 19/11/2018 18:16

There has been discussion of a third sex/gender in Germany but I am not aware that there are any imminent changes afoot. Have seen however that recruitment ads are starting to state (m/w/d) or similar to show that they are open to all applicants.

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