"More likely to be homeless, be abused..."

[Ekphrasis]

In a conversation on fb:

"transwomen are far more likely to be murdered, live in poverty, be homeless, and be abused then cis women. So its important to put those peoples rights equal to or even above cis women because intersectionality is real."

Does anyone have the correct stats? just so it's etched into the internet

Missed out murdered in the title, that was the key one!

Interesting.

I imagine employment is harder and this can lead to other problems.

So why are we presenting it to children as so harmless and so fluffy?

The only solid data that I have seen on this came from a study in America. Sorry I lost all my links a while back, and need to go out soon, so leave it to reader to google. They concluded that the murder rate etc was higher for transwomen, but only because so many were taking part in prostetutiom, the murder rate for prostitutes being fairly even across transwomen and women.

There may have been a discussion ( or it may have been a different study) about why so many were prostitutes and it may have concluded that their reason was different. Less likely to be desperation. Although I think insufficient data may have been a problem for that.

Note also that the uk data shows that men are more likely to be murdered than women, there is absolutely no evidence in the uk that transwomen are murder at a higher rate than men, which is the more valid comparison to my mind.

The first thing that springs to mind is this: to what extent do those claims also apply to men?

Men are more likely to be murdered than women: it’s a reflection of male violence. Saying that transwomen are more at risk of violence than women is specious reasoning.

I think men are also more likely to be homeless

The comparison with women is the invalid point. They are on a par with men and ...well....

Thanks I think the murder one is the key one here.

I imagine employment is challenging but it also must be among many different groups. Mental health is probably also a factor.

I seriously can't post the rest of the post but the cognitive dissonance was extreme.

Including chromosomes don't equal sex.

They have different life experiences than women because they are not women. Isn't that just another proof that transwomen are not women? (And that they and their handmaidens are not good at reading and evaluating statistics).

The murdered one is debunked by Karen Ingala Smith here
kareningalasmith.com

There was a thread I read the other day which had some info. Trans women in the U.K. are more likely to be the murderer than be murderered. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3064926-Number-of-trans-people-who-are-murderers-is-greater-than-the-number-of-trans-people-who-are-murder-victims-in-UK-Title-amended-by-MNHQ

I don't recall where, and AS is letting me down, but we've discussed the 'homeless' claim. At root, it seems the people were backed into admitting that they were making the 'homeless' claims on the back of the number of people who report being thrown out of the house/leaving their home after coming out as trans to their families.

I’m all for fighting for safe spaces etc but why is mumsnet so obsessed with ‘they don’t have it hard! The suicide rates aren’t that high’ they are real people behind the title you know. One suicide or murder because of your orientation or similar is too many.

acsex hierarchy of men on top of women, as we have now, they’re suggesting as a solution a gender identity based hierarchy of : 1) men, 2) transwomen 3) transmen, 4) women.

Sheila Jeffreys says that we've given up having a hierarchy in some cases and now have a sex caste system.

In this book I have chosen to use the term ‘sex caste’ to describe the political system in which women are subordinated to men on the basis of their biology. Feminists have disagreed over whether women’s condition of subordination is best referred to in terms of ‘caste’ or ‘class’. Those who use the concept of women as a ‘sex class’, such as Kate Millett, are referencing their experience in leftwing politics and see the idea of ‘class’ as offering the possibility of revolution (Millett, 1972). Millett did, however, use the term caste as well, speaking of women’s ‘sexual caste system’ (Millett, 1972: 275). If women are in a subordinate class in relation to men, as the working class is in relation to the bourgeoisie, then women’s revolution can be conceptualised as overthrowing the power of men in such a way that sex class ceases to have meaning and will disappear as a meaningful category (Wittig, 1992). It also implies, as in left theory, that women’s revolution requires the recognition by women of their ‘sex’ class status as the basis for political action. Nonetheless, the term sex class can be problematic because it implies that women could move out of their ‘class’, in the same way that individual working class people could change their class position by becoming embourgeoised. The term ‘caste’, on the other hand, is useful for this book because it encapsulates the way in which women are placed into a subordinate caste status for their lifetime (see Burris, 1973). Women may change their economic class status with upward mobility, but they remain women unless they elect to transgender and claim membership in the superior sex caste. Both of these terms can be useful in articulating the condition of women, but the term ‘caste’ offers a particular advantage in relation to studying transgenderism. The very existence of transgenderism on the part of women demonstrates the stickiness of caste subordination. The marks of caste remain attached to females unless they claim that they are really ‘men’, and only a very significant social transformation will enable change in this respect.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2014/04/04/exclusive-preview-gender-hurts-by-sheila-jeffreys/

I’m all for fighting for safe spaces etc but why is mumsnet so obsessed with ‘they don’t have it hard! The suicide rates aren’t that high’ they are real people behind the title you know. One suicide or murder because of your orientation or similar is too many.

I don't think anyone is saying any suicide or murder is ok. They are saying that if you claim that these rates are higher for transwomen than for other groups, and you use that claim to justify taking safe spaces and resources away from vulnerable women, then you have to be sure both that these claims are true and that doing this will help those statistics. Because if both of those aren't the case then you have no justification for taking anything away from vulnerable women.

The main problem with any such claims for me is the correlation between being trans, other mental health problems, and according to the Paul Henson article (below) a high level of childhood abuse.

There are reasons these things occur, but these things are not the fault of women. And unfortunately, I think we have to assume that there is a higher risk that troubled male bodied people are probably a higher risk to women than the average man, however they identify.

That’s the elephant in the room here. We’re being sold the lie that this is not a mental health issue and that these people are “born in the wrong body” and are women, just like all “other” women.

But they aren’t. They are male and there’s a high proportion who have concomitant personality disorders (according to research). The fact they are pushing so hard to get into women’s spaces is an enormous red flag when you look at it with bald reality.

medium.com/@paulhewson_11172/responses-stating-they-had-experienced-childhood-abuse-49-541e2f50cd5a

Apologies, I went a bit off topic. I was trying to say what Materialist and others said much better. “Intersectional” is misleading as they are putting “transwomen” in the wrong ontological category of “women”.

Thank you materialist you've made a good point - it's not that I don't doubt it's fucking hard but it's also fucking hard for many other groups too - using such unsubstantiated claims to elevate a cause to guilt trip and claim anyone disagreeing is 'phobic' isn't appropriate when talking about things like women's refuges - they're refuges for women who've been abused, at risk of murder and are so homeless.

Sorry this is a bit of a drip feed; I've been literally hopping mad with the whole thing I read, while trying to just get on with family life. Plus dh was seemingly more in the dark than I realised so a bit of up to speeding there too.

I've been literally hopping mad with the whole thing I read, while trying to just get on with family life

Add me to the list of women who have experienced exactly this!

This nugget:

'But including trans rights does not erase cis women or their rights, unless you believe that the presence of a penis is more powerful then someones personhood, which is to say that biology dictates everything. This is fundamentally in opposition to the basis of feminism.'