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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The feminist case against anti-trans feminism

92 replies

spannablue · 19/10/2018 08:25

Sorry to have been away for a bit- work got busy and my DS3 had flu.
Anyway I thought this might be interesting

www.versobooks.com/blogs/4090-i-m-not-transphobic-but-a-feminist-case-against-the-feminist-case-against-trans-inclusivity

OP posts:
deepwatersolo · 19/10/2018 16:55

How can transwomen be a subset of women if nobody can explain why they are in the set called women in the first place?

Yeah, and how can anything be a subset of women if nobody can define 'woman'.

merrymouse · 19/10/2018 16:56

Unfortunately Self ID is being pushed even more by the other two parties who used to at least pay lip service to women's rights and free speech being good ideas.

LorettasBox · 19/10/2018 16:58

merrymouse, quite. And this is the shell game, of course, and why they have played silly sods with the definitions - in the old understanding 'transition' meant moving from one state to another. Now, obviously no one actually believed it was possible, but it was a reasonably accurate term for the appearance of things.

But now the umbrella of trans is so enormous it includes essentially everyone except Barbie and Ken, the terminology of 'transition' has actually become detrimental to the people who stand to gain most from the movement's power play.

So, what we're seeing is a gradual phasing out of the terminology entirely - and for that to have the traction it needs, the words 'woman' (and 'man' to a lesser extent) must be emptied of any quantifiable meaning.

Because, as you point out, if someone claims to be transitioning, there must be an idea of what state they are moving from, and what to.

If, however, as seems to becoming the case, the claim is not about 'transition' at all, but about 'identity', then people can claim to have been female all their lives, even when it was demonstrably not true, because woman and female no longer mean anything beyond an indefinable feeling.

No wonder old school transsexuals are so pissed off with this - the movement will erase actual women first, and the next logical step will be to erase transsexuals too, because they show up the nonsense so very clearly.

This is why I am so adamant about not calling them TRAs, because I actually think that they aim eventually to get rid of the notion of transition entirely. The aim is control, and the heart is Anti-Woman.

deepwatersolo · 19/10/2018 17:00

Unfortunately Self ID is being pushed even more by the other two parties who used to at least pay lip service to women's rights and free speech being good ideas.

But it is very unpopular with most people, so I can't see how it can be sustainable outside a totalitarian state. Heck, why would even a totalitarian regime die on that hill that makes its delegitimization so clear?

enrichedatthegulags · 20/10/2018 00:00

It misses the point entirely. Really poorly reasoned and researched.

I understand what they are getting at with comparisons re race and immigration but I don’t think they are comparable.

Women objecting to trans-women taking places on all women's shortlist is absolutely not the same as the racists claiming immigrants took their jobs. All women shortlists were created to address the low representation of females in such positions. So they were seeking to address the under representation of a group that has faced centuries of discrimination. One could make the argument that it is more similar to places on a scheme of positive discrimination for underrepresented races, going to someone like Rachel Dolezal (who self-IDs as black).
Absolutely not the same as racism.

FadingMint · 20/10/2018 00:25

Men are not women. That's just a fact, easily proven.
We women know this.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 20/10/2018 00:41

deepwatersolo
No one will fight a revolution over trans issues.
What all this is doing is much more sinister imo. In a word, destabilising.

deepwatersolo · 20/10/2018 12:34

ALittleBit but to what end? I don‘t buy that it is the far right / Bannon /Putin. This has been in the works much longer, Soros‘ open society funds groups committed to this new type of genderism... if anything in that vein, it might be trying to be everything that conservative Putin/Bannon aren‘t, and going overboard, deliberately or not.
Maybe Paglia is right and it is really when empires/civilizations end, ultimate hedonism organically takes over and that‘s that (Paglia is a controversial feminist who apparently studied this type of Stuff)?
But I agree, it does not feel organic but engineered. Idk.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 21/10/2018 01:54

I'm not sure deepwater
I'm really not a political strategist lol.
Some sort of totalitarianism, destabilising creates uncertainty, people look for strong leaders etc. I don't think it's a far right thing.

deepwatersolo · 21/10/2018 07:37

ALittleBit that would go in the direction of Hannah Ahrendt‘s work. She found that totalitarian regimes subvert the people‘s sense of reality and also integrity by making them repeat lies, thus making them also complicit.
The efforts to censor speech on and offline also go in that direction. Yeah, maybe they want to create Chinese conditions as a replacement of Democracy, which is too dangerous at these inequality levels. Possible. I‘m certainly wondering what this is all about.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/10/2018 13:51

If you can make people deny a very fundamental real fact, and then get them to self police it through social pressure, you can do anything.

This is partly an excercise - perhaps an experiment, in social control. It also rolls back women’s rights as a nice side effect and destigmatises male sexual entitlement and paraphilias.

It is absolutely not organic, and it is not benign

Iused2BanOptimist · 21/10/2018 14:16

Bowl I agree. I have often wondered about it being an exercise in social control. A practice run for something more sinister? Or perhaps an idle bet between billionaires with anarchist tendencies to prove it can be done?

I just don't know why any sane person would think this is a good idea.

VickyEadie · 21/10/2018 14:20

If you can make people deny a very fundamental real fact, and then get them to self police it through social pressure, you can do anything. This is partly an excercise - perhaps an experiment, in social control. It also rolls back women’s rights as a nice side effect and destigmatises male sexual entitlement and paraphilias.

Precisely. I was utterly depressed to find women arguing on Facebook recently that 'transwomen have no innate advantage in sport'. It really is believing the utterly unbelievable and more and more people are doing so - apparently.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/10/2018 14:36

Trumps kids in cages debacle was similar- what will the public accept?

Remember you don’t need totalitarianism to be jackboots and guns. All you need is a populace whose physical needs are taken care of - but only just, with the ability to remove them so people feel precarious , and the right psychological conditions.

moofolk · 21/10/2018 15:15

It is a really patronising and glib article.

Ereshkigal · 20/11/2018 03:53

Posting this excellent rebuttal to this article:

conatusnews.com/gender-identity-preclude-male-violence-reply-finlayson-jenkins-worsdale/

Ereshkigal · 20/11/2018 08:35

Started a new thread to discuss the response piece by Holly Lawford Smith and Emily Vicendese as I felt it deserved its own.

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3428896-excellent-response-piece-to-bad-intersectional-feminist-piece-about-anti-trans-feminism

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