Lack of research on females with autism and transitioning

[idontlikepinkandimstillfemale]

I'd love to know if anyone has anything to share on studies to do with autism and girls transitioning. I use as a disclaimer here that these are just some of my personal ideas and anecdotal, I welcome anyone who has any research to contribute.
I have a friend with a daughter diagnosed with Aspergers. There were many things about her that I identified with myself. I subsequently did a lot of reading into Aspergers (at least 30 books, countless articles online, not just a few websites) in females, and sought a diagnosis for myself. Good god, I had a job getting to see anyone, there are so few experts on this due to the ways in which autism presents itself differently in girls, and the historical gender bias in the data. Because it took so long I eventually left the country before I had the chance to go through the diagnostic process. So in any case, I can't claim to have a diagnosis (as a lot of women don't, for the same reasons as mine), so I won't say absolutely I am on the spectrum, but I do have a wide variety of traits.
Autistic people (I don't use person centred language as a lot of autistic people themselves don't like it) tend to be gender non-conforming. This could be due to lesser sensitivity to social conditioning which go along with impaired issues with processing social information. I'm personally gender non-conforming, from my earliest memories I felt 'different' to other girls, I didn't identify with how they reacted to social interaction, expressed themselves, their interests. I have always hated it when girls and boys are put into separate groups, when there were separate dress codes, any separate rules at all really made me feel really uncomfortable and still do. Girls are socialised to be nurturing and caring and generally expected to be better at social behaviour than boys. Once they get to puberty and social communication becomes more complex, particularly for girls, this can be where they start to have real problems. Autistic kids often describe feeling like an alien that has somehow landed on a planet where they don't belong, and this is how I felt too. I said countless times right into my late teens that I wondered if I was really male, or if I should be male, despite having no issue with my actual body. A disproportionate amount of autistic people are also gay or bisexual. All this adds up to looking very similar to being trans. But it's not, it's being autistic, and possibly also gay. I'm trying to suggest that because there is so little knowledge on the presentation of autism in females, this could cause problems in correctly determining which issues are to do with autism and which are to do with gender identity.

My dd is 16 with a diagnosis of autism and recently came out as gay..don’t know why she thought I didn’t know but hey. She described lots of what you mention but is now happier as herself without having to worry.

Glad to hear it. It seems there's a massive gap in the knowledge on this issue. Women are already frequently misdiagnosed before finally gaining the correct diagnosis of autism, and I wonder for all those transitioning girls who aren't diagnosed as autistic yet are being diagnosed with gender dysphoria instead.

It took 4 years to get her diagnosed and when it was first raised with school the senco laughed and said “ oh I don’t think so, she’s quiet well behaved and doesn’t mess around in class!!” He was told in no uncertain terms to go and read up about teenage girls And autism as all those things are v common as they desperately try to fit in. He soon changed his tune when hospital started writing to him agreeing with me and asking him to fill in the questionnaires.

I'm glad she at least got it eventually. There's a disgusting amount of ignorance around girls and everyone thinks they're a f*ing expert because they've seen a couple of male stereotypes on TV.

I forgot to say that the girl with Aspergers who I know whose parents I'm (distant now) friends with is visiting the gender clinic. I think they'd be shocked if I said anything to them about it, because they know how sympathetic I am to being gay and gender non-conforming. I did say to them once that I often thought I was a boy, but it was really just about not fitting in and being gender non-conforming. They just seemed very quick to get on the bandwagon, as this friend is with other things. She's a lovely mum, but it does seem like it's another of her trends.

@idontlikepinkandimstillfemale Dismissing this as a "trend" both ignores the reality of the historical and scientific existence of trans people and shows a general ignorance to equality and progress.

Do you have any research articles on autism and transitioning? That's what I'm looking for. I know that around 40% of children seeing the gender identity clinics have autism, so whatever the reason this is a massively disproportionate number and not something to be ignored. It's a fact that girls are continually misdiagnosed with other conditions rather than autism, including with BPD and bipolar, so it's important that autistic girls are getting the support they need.

The number of children that are trans and are seeking to transition, identify and live as they are who are autistic is entirely irrelevant. There is of course serious issues with the support and diagnosis of things like autism in women and trans men, and maybe if you put effort and time into fighting that battle and not trying to scaremonger about trans equality then there would be more of a chance of those issues being fixed.

It's entirely relevant, because it's co-morbid, girls are massively under-diagnosed with autism as well as massively misdiagnosed, and girls with autism are vulnerable as they find it difficult to identify their own emotions, for one thing. You are in fact the one who doesn't seem to care about that but to push your own agenda. I'd happily read any research you can show me that points to there being no links, but it appears you just enjoy shouting.

I agree with the OP. It is very worrying that we don't have enough research on this. Why would so many people who attend gender clinics also be on the spectrum? There should be lots of research going on trying to answer this question.

Its extremity dangerous and downright disgusting to try and dismiss the reality of transgenderism by trying to paint it as misdiagnosing autism just to fit your hateful political agenda against trans people and trans rights. Undermining peoples reality and denying their existence as people by trying to spin absurd conspiracies is absolute disgusting.

It’s extremy dangerous and outright disgusting to deny the link between autism and transgender diagnosis in order to dismiss the very real danger transgender ideology poses to vulnerable women and girls, especially those on the autistic spectrum, who are being mutilated and sterilised just to validate your ‘right’ to invade women’s spaces and the force other people to use the pronouns of your choice.

What is ‘undermining your reality’ is reality itself; and nobody is ‘denying your existence’: you exist all right, and your ideology poses an existential threat to the concept of womanhood itself.

You deny the link between autism and presenting as transgender because you are a hateful bigot who does not think autistics are fully human.

I agree with the OP. I also think it's concerning that there are more girls being referred. Are these girls being encouraged to believe they aren't female enough because they are non-conforming?

Incidentally, we have gatekeepers to ensure autistic people are correctly diagnosed. We can’t just claim to be autistic and demand reasonable adjustments at work. We can’t just ‘self-ID’ as autistic. As a consequence posers can’t hijack our condition to facilitate some ‘autistic’ fetish. Nor can we claim to be autistic some days and neurotypical the next like it’s some fucking constume we can choose to put on.

It’s entirely different from transgender ideology, where anybody can claim to be ‘gender dysphoric’, and where the tiny number of genuine cases of gender dysphoria are used to legitimate the lifestyle choices of thousands of paraphiliacs.

@orangesnail out of curiosity, why do you think it's irrelevant that such a high number of people have gender dysphoria (sp?) also have autism?

Obviously I'm not an expert in either area, but it seems to me that exploring that link would help people manage their transition better and the expectations that they have for life after their transition.

In this situation I think autism is very very relevant orangenail

There's a significant overlap and it needs to be researched. Unless you want to destroy the bodies of children for no reason.

Have you no empathy?

An old friend is an austism advisor and has seen this explode in the kids she cares for. Suddenly.

IT NEEDS RESEARCHING FFS

I completely agree with you OP. I an autistic (I have an official diagnosis) and I did spend a few years thinking I was trans, pre-autism-diagnosis before I (a) realised that actually my feelings of alienation from "women" had zero implication that my self identity was in any way similar to how a man would feel about himself and (b) realised that autism was a more reasonable explanation for my situation.

That said - I do not know whether the people who are autistic and trans are experiencing something different to me. That's why this is such a difficult topic because no one can ever experience what another person feels.

There definitely needs to be more research.

Why is it that’s transgender activists find the link between autism and transgenderism offensive but autistics do not?

Who is ‘denying’ who’s ‘existence’ here? Who is showing the real lack of empathy?

My daughter's autistic and bisexual. When she compares herself to other girls she doesn't feel 'feminine' enough. She can't giggle or flirt, and doesn't want to pretend to like dancing or other hobbies so she can conform and fit in (had to do that pre-diagnosis and still felt isolated so knows it's a wasted effort). She is very aware of trans-ideology as she spends a lot of time online (outside is too overwhelming) and admits that she is sometimes drawn to it because she is lonely and desperate to 'belong' to a group. She also gets annoyed with periods and her breasts when they get in the way, finds wearing a bra very restrictive (autistic people have sensory issues).

Aspie I agree with you re who is denying whose existence. Autistic girls are vulnerable and an easy market for pushing an ideology on. A dark part of me thinks they are using them to experiment and test the drugs on. A darker part of me thinks that they are being groomed.
My dd is autistic and we have been pushing back against this medicating autism out of existence. Autistic families ( where a parent,especially mother have autism) tend to fair better at self acceptance and who they are in their non conformity. More girls especially asd girls need to see more asd women non conforming.

orangesnail

You have violated Mumsnet guidelines on discussing transgender issues. They do not tolerate transphobia and misogyny here.

In addition, if you make ableist and ignorant comments about autism, the members here won’t tolerate it either.

Just an FYI from another thread that ended up deleted so I don’t have the link, someone posted a study which compared autistic people ( some people don’t mind that so I’m gonna go with what my family are ok with ) to neurotypicals, and those with autism were no more or less likely to be ‘ non-conforming’ but were more likely to be consistently either conforming or non-conforming than neurotypicals.

Yes we have far less research on women and girls on the spectrum, as with most things. We need to keep pushing for more research. But there are more professionals with experience diagnosing girls now. You can ask before you engage their services- we did. Any therapist of any kind I always ask, have you experience working with females with autism specifically.

I understand and would not question, that many parents say their autistic child is vunerable to this kind of ideology. My own teen gets angry if I suggest in any way she is vunerable to ideology of any kind- she is very definitely gender critical as are her group of friends with autism, I believe they discuss it a lot. I just wanted to put that out there, that not everyone with autism is desperate to fit in and is vunerable. Both my husband and DD say they’ve never been ‘desperate to fit in’ or particularly worried about anything like that. They were always aware they were different and totally ok with spending a lot of time alone.

I have an autistic daughter who is FtM - aged 20. Her autism was not diagnosed until after she told us she was trans - we didn't have a clue she was autistic until her life basically fell apart with severe anxiety and depression in her late teens. My suggestion she might be autistic was dismissed by several medical professionals.

The psychiatrist who eventually diagnosed her says she comes across lots of young women presenting with gender difficulties (and/or anorexia) who have not yet been diagnosed with autism.

There was a conference in Leeds last year on the subject of gender and autism - I don't know if there are any papers available, but some of those presenting might have published some?

www.andrewsimscentre.nhs.uk/filestore/documents/ASC_-Autism_and_Gender_Flyer-_19_1_18.pdf

Here are some interesting papers:

Prevalence of the wish to be the opposite gender in adolescents and young adults with autism:

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-018-1218-3

"I don't feel like a gender, I feel like myself"

www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/aut.2018.0001

OP I have links to several others if you want to pm me.

As to accusations that a diagnosis of autism is being used as a barrier to transition. I absolutely agree with most on here:

Girls women are underdiagnosed as autistic and left struggling for too long - that is a feminist issue.

Autistic people tend to develop emotional maturity later than their peers - so decisions on irreversible treatment are more risky

Difficulty identifying and understanding emotions, and a life spent not fitting in and not knowing why could lead to susceptibility to misdiagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Transition can lead to unknown long term health effects and sterilisation - that feels like eugenics to me.

Stark
Your post made a lot of sense to me. I have a number if autistic family members. From my tiny sample I have seen more gender confusion before the diagnosis of autism is given when they did not know why they felt different.

Thank-you to everyone who posted with clearly valuable first hand experience of this. This conversation needs to be had, it's astonishing that it isn't had more often, and more research must be done on this issue. It is indeed a feminist issue that girls are misdiagnosed or diagnosed far too late after struggling for far too long. It's very telling to me both of the misogyny and stigmatisation of autism that the needs of females are being ignored by trans activists.