Lack of research on females with autism and transitioning

[idontlikepinkandimstillfemale]

I'd love to know if anyone has anything to share on studies to do with autism and girls transitioning. I use as a disclaimer here that these are just some of my personal ideas and anecdotal, I welcome anyone who has any research to contribute.
I have a friend with a daughter diagnosed with Aspergers. There were many things about her that I identified with myself. I subsequently did a lot of reading into Aspergers (at least 30 books, countless articles online, not just a few websites) in females, and sought a diagnosis for myself. Good god, I had a job getting to see anyone, there are so few experts on this due to the ways in which autism presents itself differently in girls, and the historical gender bias in the data. Because it took so long I eventually left the country before I had the chance to go through the diagnostic process. So in any case, I can't claim to have a diagnosis (as a lot of women don't, for the same reasons as mine), so I won't say absolutely I am on the spectrum, but I do have a wide variety of traits.
Autistic people (I don't use person centred language as a lot of autistic people themselves don't like it) tend to be gender non-conforming. This could be due to lesser sensitivity to social conditioning which go along with impaired issues with processing social information. I'm personally gender non-conforming, from my earliest memories I felt 'different' to other girls, I didn't identify with how they reacted to social interaction, expressed themselves, their interests. I have always hated it when girls and boys are put into separate groups, when there were separate dress codes, any separate rules at all really made me feel really uncomfortable and still do. Girls are socialised to be nurturing and caring and generally expected to be better at social behaviour than boys. Once they get to puberty and social communication becomes more complex, particularly for girls, this can be where they start to have real problems. Autistic kids often describe feeling like an alien that has somehow landed on a planet where they don't belong, and this is how I felt too. I said countless times right into my late teens that I wondered if I was really male, or if I should be male, despite having no issue with my actual body. A disproportionate amount of autistic people are also gay or bisexual. All this adds up to looking very similar to being trans. But it's not, it's being autistic, and possibly also gay. I'm trying to suggest that because there is so little knowledge on the presentation of autism in females, this could cause problems in correctly determining which issues are to do with autism and which are to do with gender identity.

Yes it is a feminist issue and is tied to how autism was always seen as something men had as women present differently. The misdiagnosis and under diagnosis of autistic women is something people have only just picked up on in the last few years and there is still alot of ignorance. We do need to understand this link between trans and asd better or we are failing autistic women and girls again.

It’s also not the first time ‘they’ have realised women have been being misdiagnosed with something else, when they actually had autism. My first realisation my DD was possibly autistic was reading about sensory sensitivity around food, and the book actually talked about eating disorders and the link with autism and sensory issues around texture, how many women and girls were thought to have classic eating disorders were actually autistic. My husband is autistic but because he is so different to our DD, I never thought all these things I had been noticing were an indication of autism. I felt terrible but everything I had read previously was clearly based on how it presented in males, reinforced by seeing it in my husband.

So my point is, it’s not the first time ‘we’ have learnt something new about autism in females and how it might be misdiagnosed as something else. This time the ‘misdiagnosis’ or ‘something else’ happens to be a really contentious issue and is being handled really poorly because of it.

It makes me so f*ing angry that women on the spectrum have always been neglected and now in yet another way male egos and temper tantrums are drowning this issue out.

Oh me too.

There is an adult Adhd forum if you google adult Adhd UK you will find it easily and they have a topic on this on the gender section that has a lot of research linked. (Asc has high cross over with adhd and a lot of the women on that forum either have both or feel they do for those not dx). It’s a really great site for research about nuerofiversity in general, shit tone of studies are linked.

I hear you pink.

Thanks

Thanks for this thread. I'll post later when I've more time since I am also a gender nonconformist women with AS too.

I too agree with the OP. I remember feeling very confused about my identity as a woman in my mid teens, and it was part of my social communication difficulties, which were undiagnosed. I think gender dysphoria can be part of feeling very uncomfortable in your skin, and there are all sort of co-morbid issues that would make that the case. Changing sex is not going to solve them. Proper understanding of why you feel alienated/outsider, uncomfortable/traumatised. Simply changing your body isn't going to solve all those problems. I have a child with autism who is older teen.

There is a lack of evidence on transitioning and autism. After everything that's happened I am still a trans ally but at the same time am aware of limitations and that there are things only genetic women will have to contend with. This is why we need this research as we don't want people transitioning by mistake - particularly children.

ASD women in terms of socializing tend to be more like genetic males - this has been shown in MRI scans. From my perspective I have always been ME first, girl second - a person first. I found gendering and gender-specific dress codes etc very uncomfortable. School uniform I could just about tolerate when girls could wear trousers (it boils my piss that in 2018 girls STILL have to put up with that gendered shit) I was accused as a boy so many times but even though I dressed androgynously as a pre-teen and teen I kept my long hair. I wear dresses and skirts when I feel like it as I have adult freedom.

My worry is that some people could transition by mistake if they have undiagnosed ASD. In some countries gay and lesbians have had forced transing to contend with simply because they don't fulfil social norms. My worry is that some people want to jump on the transgender trend to force 'acceptable' gendered social norms.

@JohnMcCainsDeathStare I totally agree, this is what concerns me. They call autism 'extreme male brain' which pisses me off - if it exists in females then yes, it's an atypical brain, but it's still a female autistic brain. It goes back to ideas of associating logic and problem-solving with maleness, so it's not such a leap for an autistic girl who's having difficulties integrating as a female to think her life would be easier if she were male. I think the problem is a combination of a lack of acceptance and understanding of girls/women with autism coupled with sexist ideas about 'lady brain' coming from a trans ideology.

There aren’t many negative consequences of being misdiagnosed as autistic if you are at the high functioning end.

So, you get a quiet part of the office with softer lighting, and you are left to get on with your work with fewer interruptions, and your work is broken down into easier to understand units.

Frankly there are neurotypicals who would love to have that too.

But being misdiagnosed as gender dysphoric means being put on a path that can lead to sterilisation and bodily mutilation.

So if there’s a possibility that your child’s gender non-conformity might be down to ASD that really has to be investigated first.

I read an article but can't remember where that talked about the higher prevalence of gender disphoria in people with autism irrespective of gender. The author was a psychiatrist. He noted that people with autism tend to focus very specifically on things and if they focussed on their gender then perhaps that might explain the disparity. I cannot speak of the facts as I don't have any data personally.

Anecdotally my friends daughter with autism is currently beginning to transition and it is making him very happy. I don't think telling him that this is a symptom of autism would change the decision. He is very intelligent and knows his own mind and seems more content moving towards a gender that better fits his own self image

I have written a lot on here about autism and gender. If you search my name you'll find it all. The prevalence of gender variance in autistic people is clear evidence that gender norms are socially constructed. Once you see that you see how externally imposed gender norms create dysphoria in autistic children. Combine this with proprieception issues so their bodies don't feel right or 'theirs' and you may in fact have the explanation for childhood gender dysphoria. Then there's the fact that girls have gone massively underdiagnosed and therefore unsupported. I contend the only reason why people can't see this, given that the social construction of gender is actually observable as it happens and has been extensively written about is because the sexist idea that male and female brains are fundamentally different has been deeply entrenched for millenia and psychology and sociology have not overcome it.

Pink yes same here re anger about females being under diagnosed. I realised our local diagnosis criteria were totally male oriented in last couple of years and did have opportunity to question and point out to local CCG. Are supposed to be working on it.

Am very concerned about autistic girls going for transition when they are not genuinely dysphoric and their issues are for other complex and diverse reasons. Know several parents of ASD kids very upset by Mermaids and the push to transition.

And yes Stark your point re later maturity is very important. Another reason for great care to be taken with autistic girls (and also boys)

I was reading about Homosexual OCD (HOCD) last week.

People with this condition aren’t homosexuals with OCD, they are heterosexuals who suffer from obsessive or intrusive thoughts that they might be homosexual.

Sometimes they respond to such obsessive thoughts by suppressing them with excessively ‘heterosexual’ behaviour (machismo, promiscuousness, homophobia, etc) but sometimes they try to alleviate the symptoms by ‘outing’ themselves to friends and family and even beginning unsuccessful gay relationships.

I wonder how much gender dysphoria is related to obsessive thoughts about gender?

For the record, I also have OCD as well as Asperger’s. Not HOCD but I understand obsessive and intrusive thoughts.

The thing is I am happy with who I am and how I express my gender and sexuality - the problem is genuinly with other people.

It might sound vain but I suspect since I'm not the best NT mimic since I don't differentiate between men and women and I perhaps have rather strange body language I have been accused of flirting and making passes at people - it is also possible that I have been assumed to be flirting - but here is the rub I DON'T FLIRT! I have only ever had long term relationships with people I already know.

For it it has been other people assumptions about correct gendered behaviour that are far more damaging than how I felt about myself. My parents did not treat me any differently from my brother on the whole apart from the specifics (e.g sanpro) so at least home was a refuge in that sense. What infuriates me is that people are STILL putting boy/girl as a greater importance than human being.
I think if we ignore gender most of the time and evaluate people as people first it would make things a lot easier. There are sex differnces - most men don't need sports bras and sanpro, women don't need genital cups for contact sports but these aren't important when evaluating people most of the time.

@AspieAndProud yes, you beat me to it, I was going to mention OCD is an obvious factor which could lead to a black or white way of thinking that transitioning is the answer.
@GoldenBlue that's fair enough re your friend's child, if that happiness does last. It's obviously an issue though for all the reasons mentioned that there are various issues that make autistic kids more vulnerable and socially immature for their age.
@SarahCarer Thanks for that, I'll have a look for your other posts.

I got diagnosed with autism at age 46. Took 10 years to get that diagnosis.

What really pisses me off is girls with autism are now being recognised more but this is now being hijacked by the trans ideology.

I know what growing up autistic was like, how I behaved, my boy-like tendencies, late development etc etc and I've been told my experience is not relevant by some woke twat because I'm not trans. It is relevant, because I'd bet my last pound if TRAs had infiltrated my school back in the day, they'd hone in on me like no tomorrow.

@JohnMcCainsDeathStare Yes, as I mentioned I don't have a diagnosis but I can relate to everything you've said. Being called 'cis' really infuriates me just because I look feminine, because I don't relate to the standard notions of femininity at all - that's not through a logical rejection of gender stereotypes, but how I've always felt as long as I can remember. This gets worse as you go from being a girl to a woman, I find people read double meanings into things you say because women are more socially sophisticated, but with me it's almost always what I say is what I mean, which relates to what you were saying about flirting.

Very interesting thread, thanks op.

The only child I have taught who questioned their gender was autistic. (I've taught children with asd for well over a decade.) they were extremely gender non conforming.

Interesting that someone said upthread that they're either conforming or not as besides this child, they've all be very gender conforming - to the point with one child, they refused to read a reading book that was a complex rewrite of Cinderella as it was a 'girls' book.

Whilst this researcher hasn't to my knowledge looked at transitioning, she's certainly researched a lot on gender stereotypes, brains and autism so might have covered something or be open to any questions if anyone wanted to contact her. abs yes I stole my name from here

parentingsciencegang.org.uk/web-chats/how-different-are-womens-and-mens-brains/

@numptynuts I'm sorry it took you so long. How is that right? Women waiting until they're in their 40s to get an autism diagnosis, but then kids being transitioned so quickly? It's almost like high functioning autistic women who we were previously told didn't even exist are being written out of the script. If more girls are being diagnosed now then it's obviously great that there's more awareness and knowledge about female autistic traits, but it seems like they don't want autistic girls to grow into autistic women, they HAVE to be converted to being male instead. Autistic girls could be such good role models for young girls on how it's OK to be non-conformist and their diverse skill sets demonstrate the variety of strengths women can have, often including areas that are considered traditionally masculine. Watched the TED talk with Susie Green today. 'Girl brain in a boys body' I don't care if someone wants to be trans actually at all, I've known trans people and honestly was supportive, but the neurosexism pushed by fing lady brain ideas of TRAs is just so regressive, a fing Daily Mail idea of science reporting, where are people like Richard Dawkins and Ben Goldacre who are usually so happy to debunk bulls* like this?

my own niece is autistic but not diagnosed as in another country and it was felt it was better to go down a route of dyspraxia type diagnosis to access the physio/ OT input she needed (she has some fine and gross motor difficulties as well as processing difficulties). She's very into 'girls things:' pink, flowers etc. though this came on later, as a young child she loved trains (Thomas) and the more gruesome bible stories.(very religious now, I think it gives her a social structure) She's never been able to play however - it's too complex a behaviour- and her problem solving skills (in terms of daily life) are limited. But she does reasonably well in a mainstream school; I think if she was diagnosed with asd she'd be in a special school. But I'm apprehensive for her about how she'll find being a teen. She's extremely vulnerable. Her younger sister is developing street cred and style. In many ways the fact she's so into the church is good as she has so many friends among the congregation (adults).

I've often felt she's only gender conforming because that's what girls wear if that makes sense? And her parents have to support her a lot socially. Girls have dolls so she had dolls but could only line them up and tell you when their birthday was.

I've not taught any girls with autism like her. But I only teach primary level and in a special school; I do wonder if it's different for young people with asd in mainstream settings. Social pressures are much higher and fast paced; I know that all will miss out on cues and struggle horribly - many came to the setting from mainstream around year 2.3 or 4.

@NeurotrashWarrior Thanks for the link, she's great! I've also read Baron-Cohen and Cordelia Fine who she mentions, the latter being the antidote to the former, although even he has backtracked somewhat lately and admitted there are a lot more females on the spectrum than was originally thought.