Hate crimes against men

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Thought this was interesting.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45870948

Sorry , I meant harm caused directly by someone else's negative attitudes to a specific group .

We were discussing this on FB earlier. Pretty soon everybody will be covered by hate crime legislation. It’ll look lovely in the headlines that the govt are doing this and that to protect groups x y and z, but all it’ll mean in the real world is that the same privileged few will be protected, because the police will go on prioritising the same people as they ever did, only those people will have the weight of the law behind them. Just like self ID really, make the law so universal that anybody can exploit it, but it’s only really useful if you’re a certain type of person, namely male.

Like fuck are you not here to be goady. The purpose of so called hate crime legislation, much though I disagree with it, was to deal with specific vulnerable and minority groups that faced significant prejudices and dangers due to their particular characteristics - ethnicity, sexuality etc.

But thanks for proving my point that when you single out specific motives for crimes it's profoundly unhelpful, particularly because you get a whole crowd of people wondering why their special bone of contention doesn't get extra special status.

As I've made clear, I personally disagree with the whole notion of 'hate crime', but I can at least see the motivation for people to want to protect minorities. Men have many issues to deal with, no doubt. If you could encourage them to get on with it and stop being violent to each other and women on a huge scale, that would be grand, ta.

84 men a week killing themselves is a tragedy. It's not hate crime and it's not evidence that men are vulnerable either. Toxic masculinity is reified and enforced by other men. Own it. And the poster you mentioned turned out to be a massive MRA wanker, so sorry we're just good at spotting them early, but when men come here purely to be goady fuckers for years, it helps to let them know we know what they are early on.

Just for info: the 'feminists hate men' trope is old and boring, find a new one. Feminists hate assholes.

I agree with Floral here that hate crimes in these circumstances shouldn't be seen as crimes in their own right. It's different if they are seen as aggravating factors for already extant crimes, although quite how that would work in the case of "misandry" I have no clue.

yes I agree men are vulnerable but the toxic masculinity comes from men, so are you suggesting a man telling another man to 'man up' should be treated as a hate incident.

I was (I quote) told by a female team leader that "I think you just need to man up a bit" when I was in my early 20s. I had challenged her on the way she would demean/snidely put me down in front of the three female colleagues who comprised the rest of our sales pod.

Sorry , I meant harm caused directly by someone else's negative attitudes to a specific group .

Ok, I'm probably a little off topic as this thread is about literal hate crimes, but the idea that "boys don't cry" etc is a negative attitude to a specific group. Every time people go to watch a film like Magic Mike or similar it's contributing to the stereotype that men should be big, strong, tough, manly, etc.

Women seem to love the super masculine Tom Hardy type from my observations which is why we currently have a huge epidemic of steroid use amongst young men (many of whom create irreversible physical and psychological damage - gynomastia (manboobs) and mood imbalances caused by elevated oestrogen etc).

I'm certainly not here to be goady

See unintended consequences

Poster did not mean to be goady...and accidentally comes across as goady

Oh i apologise i hadn't seen scotts latest post and was being a little tongue in cheek

Im not being tongue in cheek anymore

Epic fail at NOT being goady there

Again, a case of a man telling us all who he is, being recognised for who he is and treated accordingly.

This is being discussed on Sky News now...

IMO if we are going to have hate crimes then all the protected categories should be included. At the moment sex and age are not.
Not quite sure why Goths are being singled out for protection?

"Not quite sure why Goths are being singled out for protection?" - I wonder if it's to do with the murder of Sophie Lancaster?

Like fuck are you not here to be goady. The purpose of so called hate crime legislation, much though I disagree with it, was to deal with specific vulnerable and minority groups that faced significant prejudices and dangers due to their particular characteristics - ethnicity, sexuality etc

Not strictly true that the person being protected must be vulnerable or a member of a minority group. Taking sectarian crime a Celtic supporter beating up a male, straight, able bodied, Protestant Rangers supporter just because the latter is a Protestant is a hate crime.

I think it must be assasinated

Lass, yes, that's true, the religious aspect is significant. But I'm not going to go further down this one because I'm the gobby sod arguing against hate crime as an idea anyway.

I agree with you re hate crime. I am against the concept. Like you have done I can come up with all sorts of examples of crimes which are not "hate crime"

eg attacks on homeless people, on people who just look a bit odd , posh school boys in posh school uniform- they all happen but none are hate crimes.

I'm finding it very interesting that most of the coverage of this is focusing on misandry and Goths - misogyny gets barely a mention.

Lass, well, quite. People have all sorts of pathological dislikes that motivate them to violence.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine, that's the kicker, isn't it? If this was in any way about actually protecting the vulnerable, the news would have been framed by looking at the actual vulnerabilities that need protection.

Instead, the entire story has been presented as the patently ridiculous notion that men need extra specific protection (from themselves??!!!) which has just made a mockery of the whole damned thing.

And women are still being murdered and raped and it's being ignored, downplayed and not prosecuted. Don't look at the man behind the curtain.

CPS defines hate crime as

‘Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice, based on a person's disability or perceived disability; race or perceived race; or religion or perceived religion; or sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation or transgender identity or perceived transgender identity.’

‘There is no legal definition of hostility so we (ie the CPS) use the everyday understanding of the word which includes ill-will, spite, contempt, prejudice, unfriendliness, antagonism, resentment and dislike.’

www.cps.gov.uk/hate-crime

So, be friendly, or else !

(Incidentally, what about emo’s? Aren’t they as oppressed as goths?)

Dislike counts as hostility? !

Dislike based just on the specific characteristic, rather than a general dislike, I would think.

The inclusion of goths would have to be done somehow with wording to indicate someone was a member (or perceived member) of a distinct sub-culture. So if that was included, it would cover emos, goths, punks, etc etc.

1 when you single out specific motives for crimes it's profoundly unhelpful, particularly because you get a whole crowd of people wondering why their special bone of contention doesn't get extra special status.

2 Instead, the entire story has been presented as the patently ridiculous notion that men need extra specific protection (from themselves??!!!) which has just made a mockery of the whole damned thing.

And women are still being murdered and raped and it's being ignored, downplayed and not prosecuted.

Your second quote proves your first, although probably not in the way you intended.

You did happen to notice that the thread was called Hate Crimes Against Men didn't you?

Creasy's idea was to criminalise misogynist hate crime. Including misandry is the government proposal. Not sure if Creasy has weighed in on that yet?

No; Stella's proposition was to criminalise hate crime based on the protected characteristic of sex. A very different thing and, as we now see, comes with many unintended consequences.

Which makes it all the more stark that women interrogating Stella on such unintended consequences were banned by MN for so doing.

Criminalising 'dislike' on any basis = creating thought crime

Is it criminalising dislike though? These are treated as aggravating aspects of a crime, not crimes in themselves, I though? So a judgement on the severity of the crime - an assault is considered aggravated if the target was racially abused/targeted because of race for example.

Hey, Scott, dude, you might want to notice which position I'm arguing for, where the thread is posted and the context of the thread title, which is that a hate crime review is being reported with the bizarre lead in of 'hate crime against men'.

As in, I don't agree with the idea of 'hate crime', this section is FWR, specifically Feminist Chat, and it's pretty bloody odd that something is being made out to be an enormously prevalent issue when actually, it's not at all clear that there is misandrist hate crime anywhere.

But I'm sure you need to tell us how feminists really need to be concerned about male suicide and men being trained culturally to not cry etc. So I'll let you crack on with that. It's not my focus, or an issue that is obviously feminist, but, you know, you've got something to say, and we all know how hard it is to stop a man speaking of he really feels he must.

Burgling a home is a crime.

Burgling a home and leaving a steaming turd on the bed is a hate crime.

The victim’s identity should be irrelevant but sometimes the motivation goes beyond just wanting what someone else has.

I think we should drop ‘hate crime’ but I think there’s a difference between stealing bread because you are hungry and stealing bread because the baker’s a Jew and you think he shouldn’t be opening his shop on a Sunday.