Disabled toilets/all gender washroom

[Cheeseandapple]

Spotted at my local pool. Want to write to the manager...help me with what to say so I don't waffle!!

@AssassinatedBeauty so what if the disabled person has a child and needs to change them ? I don't see an issue with changing a child in a disabled toilet no

Although virtually every accessible toilet has a baby changing table, they are never at the right height for a wheelchair user.

I NEED to use the disabled loo most of the time but actually I think this is a good solution, as long as priority is given to those who need it.

I often go to a pub that is very child friendly so often is full of parents with small children, the disabled toilet is in almost constant use by parents but I have never had to wait.

I know TRAs object to the disabled loo becoming the de facto trans toilet and they complain that it is hurtful, causes stress and trauma but I think that is great for the GRA.

Disabled men and women have to use the same space, but not at the same time and we share it with parents and babies. So either we are also traumatised and triggered and should have separate male and female accessible toilets with baby changing elsewhere or the TRAs are talking tosh.

My DH has MS. This causes issues with his bladder as well as many other things like walking. A few weeks ago we went the theatre with 2 of our DC.

Unfortunately DHs badder decided to misbehave meaning he was up & down to the toilet several times unsuccessfully trying to empty his bladder. When his bladder finally complied the only disabled toilet was oocupied. Other toilets were up at least one flight of stairs.

DH had an embarrassing accident & missed the rest of the show changing clothes. The woman using the facility appeared able bodied, I have no idea if she had a disability or not.

My point being that disabled toilets are often 1 toilet for who knows how many. It is out of order that the small provision is being abused in this way! Disabled facilities should not be eroded in this way! Taking over disabled facilities is not the answer

Zzzzz read my post again and work out how I check, of course if I'm in doubt I don't dive in and say anything, but nearly always it's totally fucking obvious from the look on someone's face, their body language or the embarrassed giggle as they half apologise and say "oh I didn't realise it was disabled, oh there was a queue for the ladies, I was in a rush, there's so much more space for shopping bags in there, the non disabled toilet was occupied, oh sorry I didn't realise there were any disabled customers, insert your own crass fucking comment" all accompanied by a tinkly laugh of course. Or try the " oh err sorry" as someone stares at the floor or just barges past me and tries to escape my resting bitch death stare, trust me it's totally fucking obvious so I will chase the fuckers down and shout at them in public on behalf of the person sitting in their own piss or shit, clinging to a bursting stoma bag, trying to calm their autistic child, comfort their parent who only leaves the house once a fucking fortnight because it's so difficult and stressful. I've been living this life for years and I've never got it wrong so have a

Wtf? I don't want to share the toilet that I need to use when I'm having a bad flare up with parents and their babies and now people of any gender who don't fancy going in the segregated toilets. Make the toilets with a third gender neutral space but stay out of ours!

Waterlego that can't be a serious question? Of course I'm not. I've never came across communal disabled facilities, only single use.

Sorry Tripping, I though you were saying that Karen White should use the disabled facilities. I misunderstood, my apologies.

Seafour I'm with you. I have visible and invisible disabilities. Its usually pretty obvious. They look shocked and avoid eye contact when come out and see me waiting.

Disabled loos must be provided for those who are disabled. It seriously affects disabled peoples chance to participate in life, if they are made multi use.

I see the 'If my baby's asleep why should I fold my buggy and let a wheelchair user have the wheelchair spot?' brigade are here.

Other people's rights and spaces cannot be appropriated and repurposed, it takes away what was provided in the first place because it was badly needed. The only answer is additional spaces. Going to be expensive and inconvenient initially, but I was part of the first wave nearly 20 years ago, going out to wave the DDA under people's noses and say no, moaning isn't going to get you out of this, you do have to provide ramps, a properly converted toilet, lifts etc etc. Grants and funds were available for small providers, it was enforced and it happened relatively quickly. Gender neutral toilets are going to be much less expensive to produce as smaller spaces and no need for specialist fittings.

I am physically disabled, and I only use disabled facilities on the days I physically can't access the normal loos. Unless the need is physical you have no business using specialist provision for physical need. Any more than you have any business finding 101 selfish reasons why you're choosing to block a space that is the one and only way a wheelchair user can travel.

Can I throw a small spanner into this set of plumbing...

Being transsexual, but also being "disabled" as I have a bag, which toilet am I supposed to use?

1. I won't use the ladies because, well, I'm not a woman.
2. I won't use the mens because I've actually been assaulted in a men's loo before and am scared of physical violence again.
3. If I need to "deal with" my bag, I need space.

I'm not registered disabled, I'm not disabled "enough" to see myself needing to be covered under the protected category but I NEED to use a disabled loo.

Are we suggesting now that we create ANOTHER set of toilets for "Disabled Trans"? I mean that's now

Mens
Womens
Trans / Gender neutral
Disabled
Disabled Trans / Gender neutral

I know I'm being flippant but there's clearly an issue - even at the most basic level of planning / capacity.

GulagsMyArse
selfish doesn't even cover it and yes I have had many go at able bodied waltzing out of disabled loos.

As an aside, I read a lot of Prof Clara Greed's work on public toilet provision for women whilst at university - some may be interested.

people.uwe.ac.uk/Person/ClaraGreed
Not all disabilities can be seen.

Disabled toilets are generally companies lazy place to put anything else that is needed. I think in most cases they just see it as a box ticking exercise anyway so don’t see the massive issues that can be caused by lumping everything else in there for those who really NEED it.

Baby changing should be available either in a separate room or as a pull down table in the ladies and gents.

Disabled toilets should all be changing places type (ha well I can dream) and only used by people who have disabilities which mean they can’t access the other toilets.

For most disabled people they have one toilet they can access so people using it simply for convenience over using the ‘normal’ toilets can really cause issues especially for those with bowel or bladder problems

^^ damn editing

Bottom should read

GulagsMyArse
selfish doesn't even cover it and yes I have had many go at able bodied waltzing out of disabled loos.

Not all disabilities can be seen.

As an aside, I read a lot of Prof Clara Greed's work on public toilet provision for women whilst at university - some may be interested.

people.uwe.ac.uk/Person/ClaraGreed

Hamster your needs are fully within the description of the Equality Act coverage of disability. You certainly count as having a physical (medical) disability for the purposes of access.

I can’t believe this is even being debated this way. This thread 🙄.

I have a serious fucking problem with the way this country treats disabled people as it is, fuck knows how they’re supposed to get around let alone use facilities that are often completely inadequate ( anyone remember the paralympian on a virgin train who couldn’t actually get to the disabled loo because the aisle was too narrow??!! ). But this is next level insult. First they have to share a baby change station, no I do not think that’s ok, and now it’s just anyone who feels uncomfortable in Male or female toilets because of their ‘gender identity’ 😐 Not okay.

Disabled toilets are for physically disabled people. NOBODY ELSE. Not even for 60 seconds. It’s utterly selfish to do it.

In this instance, OP I think you should ask them to clarify all the different signs and why they think it’s appropriate to have a single space for 3 different needs. A baby change station can be fitted into both Male and female toilets. The disabled should be separate and just for actually disabled people. The end.

Hamster00

I can’t see anyone thinking you shouldn’t use the disabled toilets, my friend with a bag does and it’s pretty standard from what I understand due to what’s needed.

Hamster00

I have worked a couple of times at Newcastle-under-Lyme college. It's a brilliant building, a sort of oval shape with 2-3 accessible toilets on each floor, all slightly different depending on different needs including if you need assistance.

The one on the ground floor that is designed for someone who needs more than just a toilet with a hand rail ie it has a hoist and a shower and medical couch is also a designated trans toilet.

I know that is useless information unless you are going to start a course there but I think it is a very neat solution and should be copied in new build buildings.

Actually for accessibility it is fab, there are different lifts and your ID gives you access to different ones, so most students can only use one set, staff have their own lifts and people with disabilities get a pass that allows you to call any lift.

Florence it can be frustrating sometimes for disabled toilets to also be the baby change facility especially somewhere like soft play or the theatre for obvious reasons but also because most disabled people take much longer to use the toilet and we feel awkward making mums/dads with little ones wait for ages. We don't want to have our right to use a suitable toilet eroded further by it being a space for anyone and everyone to use.

So to give you a clear idea of my situation, I'm paralysed and have one arm that works fully, my bladder doesn't work at all so the only way to empty it is to use a catheter. I choose not to have a permanent indwelling catheter because I don't want one so if it's time for me to empty my bladder this is what is involved:

Find a disabled toilet, sometimes wait for the mop bucket, a months worth of toilet roll and all the cleaning supplies to be removed so that I can get my wheelchair in.

1. Wrestle my backpack off the chair.
2. Nine times out of ten clean the toilet seat.
3. Wash my hands.
4. Transfer to toilet, hoping that you don't fall onto the filthy floor.
5. Clean hands again with antibacterial gel.
6. Lay out catheter, wipes, gloves on wheelchair seat.
7. Wrestle with clothes to get access.
8. Put gloves on - remember I'm doing all of this with only one fully working limb.
9. Open sterile pack with catheter in.

10. Clean myself with sterile wipe 11. Catheterise myself and wait for up to a litre of piss to leave my body through a narrow straw. Tick tick tick tick, worry that a disabled person might be waiting or the toddler outside might have an accident. 12. Collect up everything I've used and realise that the only bin is out of reach and is a fucking pedal bin and useless to anyone in a wheelchair. 13. Put all of my waste into a rubbish bag, place bag in backpack. 14. Wrestle with clothes. 15. Transfer back to wheelchair. 16. Flush toilet - not always easy. 17. Wash hands and leave. Am I getting across to you that I can't just drop my pants and piss? I don't have the option of hovering above a filthy piss soaked seat, I can't avoid the filthy handles, I am at huge risk of infection.

Do you get the idea? I have many disabled friends, a wheelchair using daughter and a son with ms, we all have different issues using the toilet and it takes all of us a long time.
I for one don't see why our disabled facility should be further shared with hairy Mary of squeaky Shane who are able bodied and can use alternative toilet cubicles that are completely inaccessible to us.

Disabled toilets are always being used as store rooms or baby changing rooms.

As a mother and a wheelchair user myself I don't have a problem with baby changing in the disabled toilets, but it's a fucking great irony that they're too high for wheelchair users to change their babies on.

OP, I have absolutely no idea what your issue is with it being all gender. It's a private, lockable room. Mothers and fathers both take care of children these days.

Hamster00 I have an invisible disability, see my other posts on this.

Hamster00I was responding to Laura and seafets pots

Hamster you have a medical need to use a disabled toilet to deal with your bag the fact that you are also trans is irrelevant, your suggestions are ludicrous, disabled is disabled its simple. But for anyone else who has a choice and can access alternative toilets then they should do so.

SeaFour

My first point would be that it is confusing - the toilets already are ‘all gendered’, whatever that means - it’s just that looking at the signs they used to be restricted to people with disabilities.

If by ‘all gendered’ they mean that, having already reduced provision by combining disabled facilities and baby changing, they want to include anybody of any gender, it’s now just a large toilet that anyone can use.

Merrymouse exactly and very well put. No doubt all ability all gender toilets won't be good enough for some trans people anyway and they will want their own special place to piss.
It's not fair and it's not right for disabled toilets to be for anyone because I don't have a choice to use an alternative place to piss and able bodied people do.

Sorry SeaFour, I was trying to be flippant and probably didn't get my point across too well.

@pennydrew

Disabled toilets are for physically disabled people. NOBODY ELSE. Not even for 60 seconds. It’s utterly selfish to do it.

Common experiences for me:

1. Arrive at motorway service station with DD, who has complex learning disabilities. I show her into a clean toilet in the ladies. I go find one for myself. When I come out, DD is nowhere in sight. I get on the floor to see if I can see her trainers in the cubicle, I left her in. No!

DD has decided, after she finished, that "she is an adult and if she wants to go and look at the cuddly toys/Victoria sponge/sweets, etc, then she can" and she has wandered off somewhere in the service station. I then have to chase round all the shops and cafes, looking for her - when if a man approached her and told her he has some sweets in his car, she would go off with anybody! She cannot see that people's intent can be different from the words they are saying!

1. DD goes in a toilet and decides to lock the door, because she is modest. Unfortunately, she may well be able to unlock it - and if the toilet does not have locks that can be opened from the outside with a coin, it can be very difficult to explain how to undo the lock to somebody who does not understand words like left, right, up, down, turn the knob, etc!

1. DD can't cope with certain noises like hand-driers or children screaming with laughter. If that happens in the ladies, she may shut down mentally, lock herself in the toilet and refuse to come out. It can take two of us half an hour to coax her out! This is wearing, when we frequently have to say everything 3 times before she understands us anyway!

1. DD has no depth perception and stairs look like a cliff to her. Going upstairs or downstairs to ladies toilets is for her a terrifying experience!

1. If she says she needs to go, when we are out, she means we have 30 seconds before she soils herself. It is extremely unpleasant to have to take her home, bath her and wash her clothes!

1. Despite wearing incontinence pants, she wets the bed every other night; and wets herself every day. Imo, she can't be bothered to use the toilet anymore and just does it in her pants - but there is a limit to what they can take, - unless I keep on top of it and prompt her to go every two hours. If not, wet clothes, settees, carpets, car seats and anything else she might sit on or next to (like us)

IMO, it is utterly selfish to say that disabled toilets are only for the physically disabled - and expect attractive young women, who look normal, but with the mental age of about 3, to wander about in motorway service stations or other public places on their own! Unless you can tell me, how I or any carer can supervise her while on the toilet ourselves (and no, telling her not to wander off does not work, because she resents adult supervision)?