What are we asking for after the consultation ends?

[Couragetocourage]

When the consultation ends on Friday what do we begin to campaign for? Further consultation which actually seeks women’s views without them being shouted down? Or straight to lobbying for self-ID not to be proposed in the Commons?

The withdrawal of government guidance on how to interpret the Equality Act (gender reassignment)

The guidance was responsible for decisions and policies by The Girl Guides, Prison Authorities, the Police, Local Authorities, the NHA, Topshop and others. The guidance still drives organisations, charities and public bodies to put the wants and desires of transgender people before the lawful rights of women.

Self i/d by stealth

YY. I believe the guidance produced by Gendered Intelligence was pivotal to this. The government needs to replace it with a guide to how to balance competing rights across all the protected characteristics. With respect for the fact that privacy and dignity of women are also (or should be) rights.

Take the T out LGBT. Remember the 'consultation' being sneaked out behind a gay conversion action. They do not belong under the same umbrella.

To be entirely fair, there was not always a distinction between sex and gender. They used to mean exactly the same thing (i.e. they both meant sex) unless you were talking about grammar.

The distinction we use today I believe emerged from feminist discourse, as a way to talk about what we would call gender (sex roles).

A lot of people use sex and gender interchangeably and honestly outside of a feminist or official context that is usually fine. I believe the distinction is a really useful one as it helps us to understand and name a lot of problems from a feminist perspective. But we cannot seek to force everyone to use only the feminist definition of gender. Two wrongs don't make a right.

The fact that the distinction exists in some circles, however, means that it is clearly not appropriate to conflate the two terms in official or political contexts, e.g. in laws, because clearly the potential for confusion is huge. The law must explicitly clarify what is meant by the words sex and gender (and I think the feminist distinction is the best way to do so) and then use the terms accurately.

Oh, and we need a legal definition of Woman and Man so that there's an end to this 'Of course a woman can have a penis' nonsense.

I'm worried about charities being denied funding, as Ova said, if they refuse to accept the trans ideology.
I'm worried about child protection - halting the influence of the trans lobby and ideology on the way that existing safeguarding legislation is applied.
I'm worried that we have regressed so far and taken such a toxic course that women will suffer daily as a result.
I want the trans lobby out of our schools. I want targeted support services for young people with MH issues, instead of leaving them susceptible to idiots who sell them fairy tales.
I want to see an end to the anti-science belief that kids can actually change their biology, and to the dangerous, abusive practice of giving hormones to young adults.
I want studies and research, counter to the ideology, to be published freely, without censorship. I want a proper critique of the long-term effects of being trans and the incidences of regret reported.
I'd like an explanation of the high incidence of suicide post surgery in trans women if that surgery is touted as the answer to a gender dysphoria diagnosis.
I want to get back to the place we were in (in safeguarding practice) where the legislative framework was applied without favour to this special group of men. A group who are so triggered by the idea that biological women and children might have a case in needing sex segregated spaces that they try to prevent us meeting to discuss the GRA. A group who use emotional blackmail and unreliable stats to build a case for women to shut up and move over, all the while ignoring and belittling the real harm that happens to women and children daily at the hands of men. And a group that use the same aggression and violence that they claim to be terrified of, to intimidate dissenting women.

Sorry, that was a bit of a rant - think I've pulled my vinegar string today

Oh, and the end of Gender Studies in universities because that was one of the main fronts where all this started. We need to dismantle the whole shaky intellectual edifice on which this movement is based.

Even if self ID is scrapped so many places have been acting as if it is already law for quite some time.

This.

I suspect Mordant will go for the most face saving minimal 'reform' that can be managed, such as reducing the time limit by a few months, leave everything else as it is and hope it all dies down. It won't. I was clear in the GRA consultation, the EA consultation and to my MP that it's too late for that to work. Self ID has been brought in by stealth and the EA protections removed, the damage has already been done and things can't now be left as they are. There now is no easy way out of the corner Mordant's painted herself into, but she can't say nobody tried to warn her.

In an ideal world,

• The GRA would be repealed, it's obsolete and doesn't need repurposing
• The EA re written providing specific protections separately to sex and to gender identity which is not about any belief that people can change sex, but that they can perform any gender they choose and cannot be discriminated against for doing so
• A legal requirement for third space alternatives to be provided in all services and facilities with consideration of safety, privacy and dignity
• Clear guidance on legal duty to protect sex based spaces
• Clear guidance that safeguarding policy and procedures must be applied in the same way for all people in all situations, regardless of which protected characteristics are present, and that all groups and services will be held legally liable for failure to do so.

We're going to have to think about how we help all those children who've been led down this path.

What happens to the kids with regret? Currently, the trans movement isn't geared to look after them - desisters and detransitioners are heretics as far as they're concerned.

We need some decent research into detransitioners, and we need it now. The NHS needs a plan for treating them.

We need support mechanisms in place for them.

We need to make it as easy as possible for kids to step back from this once they start experiences regret and to know where to go for help. It'll be a tough thing to go through.

Many who experience regret may decide to continue in their new gender anyway, rather than risk more surgery etc. How will they be helped?

EA being properly applied and organisations such as Girl Guiding and YHA being made to sort themselves out (has any report been made to the Charity Commission, do we know, about GG? They are still claiming on their website to be 'girls' only'. Schools must be scrutinised, by Ofsted if necessary, to see what misinformation they are pedalling and to ensure they are fully in line with the EA and safeguarding.

Language use. I've just joined a library where I happily crossed out 'gender' and write 'sex' (annoyed that I didn't add 'adult human' to the female box as well). Again, organisations, councils etc need to amend their wording to be in line with the EA.

But most importantly, we need to move away from trans even been validating as a thing, and feminist organisations need to look at that too. This will mean more input in mental health to deal with the (I believe) very small number of cases of body dysmorphia.

Actually, I think one really important things is to start couching a lot of this in terms of children's rights, which are being violated left, right and centre by this ideology.

But gender is an interesting and dangerous social phenomenon. It's socially constructed but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We can't hope to make inroads in dismantling gender if we can't talk about it. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree with PPs who said that, if focus should be on challenging the organisations and institutions who have adopted Self ID policies voluntarily. Women need to clamour for the exemptions allowed for in the EA to actually be applied. If the EA needs to be strengthened in order to make this happen in practice, or the GRA slightly weakened (in terms of the privacy protections), then this is what needs to happen. Organisations should also be required to be completely transparent. Offering mixed sex facilities/services labelled as single sex should be an offence as it does not allow women (or men) to exercise informed consent.

Not for government, but how do we make sure detransitioners and desister's voices are heard?

The social contagion aspect of this will blow over, as do all youth movemenets

• once the next generation see the reality of transition, that it's not all the shiny happy world that's being sold to kids now. We need to make sure detransitioners stories are heard.

In a similar vein (no pun intended) when I was a teen, the generation older than us all took heroin and cocaine. I'm sure it must have seemed a good idea to them at one point, but as we were younger, all we saw was the tail end of it, and it was ugly. We wanted no part of it! Although drug taking was rife in my generation, no one would touch smack, other injectable drugs or cocaine as the state of our older brothers and sisters and their generation was a sufficient warning to put us off.

Once the shine comes off transitioning, and the propaganda is shown for what it is, the next generation won't want to go down the same road nearly so much. We can also help this by challenging trans propaganda, especially in schools.

I think one of the things we will have to turn focus to is litigation. There is a recent thread on here about judicial reviews and a number of MNetters with legal background have discussed needing a fighting fund.

This is going to be a tough one because despite the lies propagated by AWAs we don't have rich donors and all our work has been grassroots funded via small donations from ordinary women.

A legal charity setup to analyse new laws/acts/rulings from a feminist (cunty women centric) angle to make sure something like the GRA is not sneaked in by stealth.

Media watch for misogyny, silencing of women, etc. - so call it out and shout about it.

Focus on schools re consent, respect etc.

Dismantling of Stonewall- it is not fit for purpose anymore.

Repeal of the GRA.

I know they are extremely difficult with little money...

I want the GRA repealed. No more nonsense that anyone can change sex. Women's spaces must be women only.

What gendercritter said.

YES! Can't believe I missed that off - well, maybe I hoped that the end result of the consultation would be its repeal.

Protect people's right to a gender expression that is independent of your biological - so that you can wear a dress and still be a man; not wear make up and high heels and still be a woman. And tell our kids that that is OK.

• your biological sex

Direction to be given to the police about the reporting, recording and investigation of 'hate' incidents and 'hate' crimes.

Undo the damage done by the government outsourcing the training and briefing of Chief Officers, and all police forces, by pro-trans lobby groups with an agenda.

Government must dissociate itself from all the trans lobby groups including Stonewall's accreditation. Lobby groups should be banned from schools and child focused organisations pending properly consulted on government guidance. Stop government funding to these groups.
Look at implementation/recommendations of the LBGT action plan and ensure conversion therapy has a precise LBG focus not trans.
Consultation on Hate Crime - Make sure this does not go under the radar and remove/limit freedom of speech, misgendering etc - need to deal with what happened in Leeds.

There must be NO transgender propaganda within schools in the guise of tolerance.

This.

TV and media outlets must be responsible. My son's HT believes Stonewall's propaganda because Schools Week endorses it and throws Transgender Trend under the bus.

ITV shows Mermaids and hoodwinks a nation.

Pressure on groups like Samaritans to speak out. Pressure on groups like Amnesty to do the right thing.

There must be NO transgender propaganda within schools in the guise of tolerance.

Yes, this.

A thorough review of how Whitehall receives advice on sex equaloty and gender issues, with the aim of rebalancing away from the Stonewall domination. This should set the lead for similar reviws but organisations such as the Girl Guides, and hopefully some internal reflection by Stonewall itself.