"Dads having miscarriages"

[QuentinWinters]

Debate on radio 5 at the moment. Man whose wife has had repeated miscarriages complaining that he can't get time off work and that society doesn't discuss dad's who have miscarriages.

I've had to turn it off. Miscarriage is a huge taboo for women (hence the whole wait for 12 weeks to announce thing) and many of us have miscarriages and little or no time off work. But yet we have to talk about the men.
And what is it with the appropriative language? Sorry Dad. You haven't had a miscarriage, your wife has.
I wonder if women should start talking about how they don't get any support when wives get erectile dysfunction.

Makes me so cross.

I didn't hear any of it, but was part of the reason that he wanted to support his wife?

file under "only a problem insofar as it affects men"?

Seriously, a filing system, if not a whole document management system, is needed on here...

When a loving couple conceive they both become parents. Yes physically its harder on the woman but the loss is emotionally the same for them both.
So I do think men should be allowed some time

It sounds like a conflation of two things. I certainly agree that dads should get time off to support their wives and to grieve in the case of miscarriage. But I disagree that they should say they ‘had’ a miscarriage (the smug ‘we are pregnant!’ is also problematic). I am the one who has had numerous medical procedures and whose body has irrevocably changed due to infertility and to my eventual pregnancy and carrying of a child. And my husband would acknowledge that and not try to make it his experience. He is a parent but he has not had a baby.

Men are human - they grieve too. Compassionate leave seems appropriate to me.

Yes , the language of men 'having miscarriages' is wrong but to do believe that they should be given some compassionate leave if it happens to their partner.

Dh's employers were thankfully great about this when I suffered a late miscarriage.

Most women are signed off work for a period of time when they miscarry. If a living child dies BOTH parents receive compassionate leave. If we want to remove the taboo surrounding miscarriage then we need to start treating it as the loss of a baby, thereby emotionally impacting both parents, not as an unfortunate medical incident that women need to deal with. I 100% think men should receive compassionate leave when their wives miscarry so they can support their partner

I took one day off work when I had a miscarriage. It was an early miscarriage, to be fair (eight weeks), and I just told work that I had a stomach bug. Wouldn't have dreamt of asking my partner to take time off.

Miscarriage needs to be talked about a lot more - by women and men alike. But through the miscarriages that I had, DH did really have a hard time as it was the loss of his baby and dreams each time too . He had to look after me physically and emotionally but got grief from work about taking time off to be with me. And no support from friends

Men are human - they grieve too. Compassionate leave seems appropriate to me.

Completely agree.

You haven't had a miscarriage, your wife has.
I wonder if women should start talking about how they don't get any support when wives get erectile dysfunction.

You are comparing the two things? Wow.

The language is clunky I agree but society (especially the workplace) needs to be more compassionate.

I'm lucky that I've never had a miscarriage but one of my friends was threatened with the sack because he wanted to support his wife who was miscarrying.

You’re off the mark actually.

I’ve had miscarriages. Some worse than others. The worst one nearly cost me my life through blood loss which was witnessed completely by DH and I had to undergo traumatic treatment. The whole physical process went on for 8 weeks, I was off work for 3 months. DH got no time off, despite requesting annual leave, apart from to support me when at the final hurdle, I had to go under general anaesthetic, when he was allowed to take that day. Much of the physical and mental trauma I went through alone and I can’t be clear enough on what a negative impact that has had on the mental health of BOTH of us. It was most definitely something we went through together but we were forced to deal with it separately.

@HamiltonCork that happened to DH second time around. The stress it put us both under was horrendous. He was in a public sector job that required him to be 100% on the ball at all times and whilst he was on shift he knew I was at home miscarrying his child and expected to just keep going as if everything in the world was fine. It’s horrific.

Totally agree men should be able to take time to support their partners, or to deal with the emotional fall out of losing a baby.

I took exception to the way this particular man was discussing it, as if it was unfair for women to get time off and not men, and saying 'Dad's who have miscarriages

The emotional side is one thing but the physical implications of miscarriage can only be felt by women, women are the ones who are actually going through that process and I think it does women a disservice not to recognise that

Miscarriage is a huge taboo for women (hence the whole wait for 12 weeks to announce thing)

Not really. People CHOOSE to not tell because they want to deal privately with a miscarriage if it happens. It's not taboo.

and many of us have miscarriages and little or no time off work. But yet we have to talk about the men.

These 2 things are separate issues. No one is suggesting a woman goes straight back to work and the man takes more time off. You are twisting things to suit your own point. I agree some women don't get enough time off, but that is down to circumstances and doesn't mean men should never be allowed to grieve.

You are comparing the two things? Wow.

Not comparing - trying to think of a physical issue a man could have that his female partner could appropriate in the same way men say "we are pregnant" or "dads who've had a miscarriage"

Women could legitimately say "we have erectile dysfunction" and I can imagine many men would hate that (quite rightly because although the woman suffers some disadvantage, by far the main impact is on the man)

bus I respectfully disagree. I've always told early about pregnancies and people are always taken aback. And no one wanted to hear when I had a miscarriage.
I was very surprised to hear that fertile women who haven't miscarried are unusual. But we don't talk about it. And many women do just carry on while miscarrying (maybe taking one or two days off)
It's still a huge taboo and I want to see women getting the support they need

men do not have miscarriages, that's true enough. But I would think that in the case of later or situations such as Mama describes the father should have some kind of compassionate leave.

I've had 7 miscarriages, all early, 3 involving hospitalization briefly. For me, DH being at home for any length of time would not really have helped beyond the practical. For me, this kind of thing would allow me to 'wallow' and that would not be good for me, I needed to get on with life and not allow this to become my life or drag me down.

Everyone is different, of course, but personally I don't like the concept that an early miscarriage is the loss of a child. It's the loss of hope that there would be a child.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/may/13/hadley-freeman-miscarriage-silence-around-it

Hadley Freeman on miscarriage taboo

Well, I'd like to see both parents supported in their grief. Obviously the mother will need specific consideration because of the physical aspect, but the emotional impact is immense for both.

Having said that, it is a little bit irritating to keep seeing this persistent 'new angle' on certain things that essentially consists of men saying "But what about meeee?"

MamaLovesMango - I am so sorry you went through this. Although I have never lost a pregnancy I also 'get' that it is traumatic.

However, I also think that leave should have been granted to your DH in the kinds of health care crisis situations you describe whether or not they involve a lost pregnancy, just as they should be granted to anyone supporting any significant other through a health care crisis.

It’s emotive and it’s different for each of us.

For me, I can absolutely say with conviction, that we both went through the process of having a miscarriage. We were both affected grately, even with the ‘easy’ ones. Having had far too much experience of it, I’m certain that some of the focus being on the partner’s experience would have no impact on breaking the taboo or ensuring women get the support that’s needed. The problem surrounding miscarriage and society is far more ingrained than that. To make a good start, I’d argue that we do need to talk more about how an experience like that affects everybody involved, so that we can learn to support each other. Everybody should be talking about it.

Here's how I see it on the basis of my own experience - I had a miscarriage, DH and I both lost a baby. I would say some compassionate leave in this case would be a good thing but could probably come under the category of force majeure leave rather than specific pregnancy loss leave.

I totally agree with the premise that a father's experience should be recognised and compassionate leave if needed should be offered without judgement.

However the language creep does bother me because we have seen so many examples recently where lack of precise language and appropriation of language leads us to a place whereby the experiences and reality of female lives are diminished. Similarly this is also happening to the lesbian and gay community.

People who are allies or in supportive roles to someone experiencing trauma, especially specific to their sex, should not co- opt those specific experiences but instead frame their experience using their own unique point of view.

There is an important linguistic difference between a would be father who has a miscarriage and a would be father who has a wife that miscarried. One of those erases the woman who physically experienced the trauma and I don't think that's ever a good thing.