Tory heartland in open revolt against self ID

[IdaBWells]

I took a couple of weeks off the feminist boards so I am not sure if this has been covered.

I took out an online subscription to The Times as they seem to be the only institution in the UK supportive of women’s rights and against self ID. Well their on-line poll is currently running at 98% against self ID and today The Times was reporting that a large contingent of Tory backbenchers are against self ID and in revolt against the party leadership! Fantastic! I think this is down to three factors:

1. The Tory Heartland are genuinely incensed that the Tory government is supporting this issue without any meaningful consultation with the grassroots. As an issue if the leadership had thought about this for 2 minutes they would have realized how incredibly unpopular it would be once the effect upon women were realized. They are definitely on the wrong side supporting a tiny fraction of the population against 50%. The majority of voters are against self ID, but if anything the Tory voters would be more likely to be against as they as a party are the supporters of conservative and traditional values. Throwing grown men with penises into changing rooms with young girls is definitely not conservative and traditional.

2. The publicizing of this issue nationally and internationally thanks to Posie Parker, Fair Play for Women, ManFriday, A Women’s Place and other activists. Thanks to them the way this issue was being slipped by the public, quietly and almost by stealth has been halted.

3. The very good analysis by The Times journalists who are the only national media outlet to have covered this issue thoroughly and consistently while it has been virtually ignored by the national press and especially by the BBC. At least a typical Times reader seems to be a Tory voter and the Times has enlightened their readership about this issue.

If Penny Mordaunt is getting serious pushback within her own party that could be the strongest and most positive result from everyone approaching their MPs in person and by email and letter. If you haven’t done so, especially if they are Tory please make contact this week before the consultation closes.

Sadly many commentators at The Times are saying that they had been considering Penny for future leadership but now think she misjudged this very seriously and of course is alienating supporters, especially women who may have supported a leadership bid.

I am clearly not a Tory although I am in the political wilderness, unable to vote for anyone. I would be very interested to hear from female Tory supporters to ask if this issue is being discussed in your constituency.

So no, relying on prison officers and psychiatrists to use their individual judgement on who is and isn’t a risk won’t work. We know that. We need systems in place (in this case, no men in a women’s jail) so that such incidents can’t arise. And a major part of the safety of these systems is a no blame culture for raising concerns. If a junior, or any, member of a team can’t raise safeguarding concerns for fear of being told they’re a transphobe, then this is also an abusers’ charter. Look at all the grooming gangs where people couldn’t raise concerns for fear of being called racist, and then tell me why we shouldn’t raise concerns about people with penises being locked up with vulnerable women.
100% agree. Simple repeatable consistent safety measures. Arm doors and cross check. Mirror signal manoeuvre. How do parachutists check and pack their parachute? The same way every time. Why is surgery so methodical, why is every swab counted? Why go over the books and check, and check again? Why audit anything? Why search people? Why breathalyse drivers?
Binary, clear-cut, simple procedures are incredibly useful. Subjective assessments carried out by experts vary in terms of usefulness. Did I leave the gas on? Well, I could check or I could ask someone to assess the probability of my having left it on based on my and others' previous gas safety behaviour. What would you do?

Human life is messier than that, unfortunately. We have panels to decide if violent sex offenders can be let out of prison. Why not use the same approach for transwomen in women's prisons?

I agree that there's really no viable party but I'm concerned that people are willing to throw people living in poverty (most hit:women); Windrush generation, and others under the bus by getting into bed with the nasty party.

Why not use the same approach for transwomen in women's prisons?

Because women in prison are particularly vulnerable and will be being locked up with the person for the majority of the day, with no hope of escape?

This is like saying, we let convicted paedophiles back into the community with a risk assessment, so why not let them work in nurseries?

The nasty party?

Better than the truly scary bonkers one, led by science-deniers.

It's not a new argument it was one of their first.
"Just wait until crimes been comitted against women first, then let the police/authorities deal with it afterwards" with no analysis of why certain things are sex segregated in the first place

By the same logic, we should leave the status quo in place and transwomen have recourse to the same legal protections if they are being thumped or sexually assaulted in the men’s toilets, changing rooms, wards and youth hostel dorms. It can’t be about feeling more comfortable or privacy, because that’s not a legitimate argument when women use it.

Why not use the same approach for transwomen in women's prisons?

Because there is currently no non-circular definition of 'transwoman'. It is absolutely impossible to define as women, let alone weed out, those transwomen who pose a threat (or, more likely, non-trans males abusing a loophole in the system to further their abuse of women).

Women make up 50 percent of the Windrush generation, those affected by Brexit and people living in poverty. Restrictions on freedom of speech affect 100 percent of the population. So on that basis I will hold my nose and vote Tory if they oppose this.

It's not helpful to categorise an entire group of people as 'nasty'. Particularly when we are talking about a mainstream political party, supported by millions of people (with whom lefties like me disagree on many things). Pigeonholed thinking is what got us into this situation in this first place.

MoggyP

Nearly everyone I know take the approach of 'just don't do it in the street and frighten the horses' Which translates as very inclusive, with an utter refusal to let the main tolerance be undermined by fringe groups.

Women are a fringe group only because they don't know what's being proposed. It's so bonkers that normal nice inclusive people can't imagine what's actually intended.

Firm determination to clamp down on crime and antisocial behaviour however it emanates, and that does not require change to self ID policy, preferring instead to deal with what (if any) actual offending results.

Yeah, the victims will only be women, who cares about them?

Just as women have no idea how much men hate them, men have no idea how much women fear them.

The solution to the "oh I'm so fretful about you awful women getting into bed with the nasty party, it really worries me, won't you reconsider?" stuff would be to persuade Labour and the LibDems to drop their commitment to silencing women's voices on this issue.

AAK I agree.

It’s something I really don’t understand:

The GRA was introduced by a Labour government. Tories such as Norman Tebbit and Ann Widecombe voiced serious concerns. The TRAs seem to be mostly Labour, Green and LibDems, so won’t vote Conservative ever.
Yet there’s my MP singing the clearly Party line that this is all a misunderstanding, it’s just administrative etc. he’s proud that the UK is a world leader in trans rights...

I doubt he even saw my email. It was dealt with by someone else.

*The nasty party?

Better than the truly scary bonkers one, led by science-deniers.*

This is my current position too TimeLady

We have panels to decide if violent sex offenders can be let out of prison. Why not use the same approach for transwomen in women's prisons?

There are currently panels to decide whether a transwoman should be in a female prison. That is the system under which the sex offender Karen White was housed in a female prison where they sexually assaulted women. www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison
The system obviously does not work.

We have panels to decide if violent sex offenders can be let out of prison. Why not use the same approach for transwomen in women's prisons?

Because it's not simply a matter of risk. Female prisoners were forced to shower with Karen White. That is a violation of their privacy and dignity.

Better than the truly scary bonkers one, led by science-deniers

I still won't vote for the Tories but yes that's how I'd describe Labour now too. What a mess. I used to support them so strongly.

Op I am relieved to see this article. I think this is what this whole debate will boil down to. Ultimately it is just ridiculous to have a society where any man can declare himself female. It is literally laughable

Is anyone here in Portsmouth North - Penny Mordaunt's constituency? Would be fascinating to know what her local party make of it all.

in this thread some are saying that the decision regarding where a person is placed in prison (eg a trans woman) is made by an individual, and others are saying it is made by a panel. Which is right?

It's you who is throwing women under the bus spannablue

As for the nasty party, I find authoritarian parties that support the silencing of women and the removal of their rights to be of far more concern than any I have about the Tories.

I have never voted Tory and never thought there would be a day that I would. Now I WILL vote for the Tories if they oppose Self ID. That's where Labour, Greens and LibDems have made a massive miscalculation, because if they keep betraying women, I won't ever go back to any of them. And I'm pretty confident I'm not alone.

And it's where all the woke fuckers have miscalculated too, because 50% of the population is one big fucking demographic, and these daft fuckers are rounding us all up and backing us into a corner where we are forced to vote on this common cause.

I spent the afternoon with numerous women I do not know yesterday, planning responses to this. Grassroots movements like this are springing up all over the country. We are organising, printing and distributing leaflets and talking to people about it. All because these woke fuckers don't think women and girls are worth consideration. We do though.

I think there will be tweaks to the current arrangements, but that's all.

I don't want tweaks. I don't want compromises. I don't want any opportunity for this to be brought back quietly and slipped under the radar.

I want it comprehensively and overwhelmingly expressed that this shall not happen.

We can't talk about it not passing because it's a consultation but the consultation can give a ringing, "No!".

Breastfeedingclownfish

If the Tories get in again because of this and millions more women end up raising their kids in poverty while we repeatedly miss global warming milestones it would be an utter tragedy

Yes, wouldn't it just?

Cede your boundaries, women, it's for the greater good.

But women getting fucked over wouldn't be a tragedy?

I was 14 when Tony Blair came into power. I spent my young adulthood at a time when it seemed that Labour could do no wrong and would be in power forever. I've been a life long Labour voter.
If the Tories come out against self-id, they will have my vote.

•howlsmovingcastle84• if we don't retain our legal class of sex, all other bets are off.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3394505-Labour-Party-Womens-Officer-Go-suck-my-big-lady-c-ck?pg=4

Oh and this thread too., nail, final, coffin.

I don't think ill ever vote for them again.

I was 14 when Tony Blair came into power. I spent my young adulthood at a time when it seemed that Labour could do no wrong and would be in power forever. I've been a life long Labour voter.
If the Tories come out against self-id, they will have my vote.

Exactly the same here. I've told my Labour MP that as well.