Self-ID in Norway: woman sued for harassment for challenging intact male in changing room

[arranfan]

It's a case review and it's a little bit more complicated than that as it played out over a period of time but...

July 2016. Norway introduces a new law which means anyone can change their "legal sex" on paper, simply by filling in a form....July 2016, at a fitness centre in a Norway. A woman is having a shower when a man walks in to use the women's showers. The woman is uncomfortable and after getting dressed she asks the man why he was using the women's shower. He replies that he's legally a woman... The woman & man again "meet" in the women's changing area at the gym. As she's already asked management & been told that anyone with male genitalia should use the men's changing area, she asks the man if he's been given permission to use the women's showers

The man shouts at her "What the fuck is your problem! This is non of your fucking business!" After this they both speak to the management and later on the centre replies in writing saying they now allow men who are legally women in the women's changing area.

The man felt the woman had harassed him by questioning why he was in the women's changing area and by referring to him as a biological man in a meeting with the centre management. He sues her for harassment, based on his "sex identity and sex expression.

The woman was just cleared of the harassment accusations. She should never have had to go through what she did, for questioning why a man was showering next to her in the women's changing rooms.

twitter.com/kajsa_skog/status/1050460469297856512

FPFW are aware - this might be a useful example for anyone filling out consultations.

Theswaggyotter

Yes they did. I'm sick of this complacency of staying, or imagining you're staying, just within a line where you cannot be held accountable.

But i like brian the snail

Not anymore you don’t Rufus. Brian the snail can do one.

Ok, putting on my 'How will they counter this' hat, I would suggest that AWAs will respond to this by saying it was indeed harrassment to complain about the penis, because there was no crime committed by the penis owner.

This seems to be the line taken by the people arguing for transwomen in female prisons, and even some deeply selfish individuals in AIBU who think everyone should just loosen up and get naked round each other.

You need to get used to being naked with any and all genitalia present (you prudes) and you have no right to object to the penis owner being near you while naked unless the penis owner does something like attack you, in which case you can hail a passing Bobby on the beat and they will arrest the miscreant.

In that case, let's get the crimes of voyeurism and indecent exposure on the table. What's the difference with the magic words I'm trans?

you can hail a passing Bobby on the beat and they will arrest the miscreant you for being transphobic

Well, that's the million dollar question,isn't it? Joanna Gosling, in response to Dr Nic talking about the danger males pose to females said, with apparently no irony at all "But they identify as female."

It's like there is some kind of mental hiccup that happens to otherwise rational people that they hear that a male identifies as a female and something mystical occurs that changes material reality.

If I was David Icke I'd be suggesting mass hypnosis, tbh. It's as weird as all fuck that this is such a common response.

On the premise that the squeaky wheel gets the oil, why not scream? If I was faced with a man in this exact situation, and screamed, and was inconsolable to the staff there, would they still take the man's side?
If you've ever seen someone get what they want by throwing an adult tantrum in front of "the manager" you'll know exactly what I mean. Hurricane force emotion.
It's be interesting as an experiment, certainly.

Let us not forget that Karen White spent some time reporting neighbours for transphobic harassment in the form of using wrong pronouns.

Imagine the pull that would have now (were it not for the pesky crimes, trial, convictions etc.). WYP would be down like a shot to interview the neighbours and issue harassment notices (that can't be refused or contested).

Imagine a scenario in which somebody like a pre-conviction Karen White would now have the vexatious power to sue someone for harassment for similar scenarios to this, or for wrong pronoun use etc.

Datum I said several years back that self ID makes the crimes of voyeurism and indecent exposure meaningless. Go into any communal space where women would expect to undress in front of one another and "I felt like a woman while I was in that space" becomes an absolute and irrefutable defence.

And this is why it's better to complain to management later, instead of directly challenging the arsebucket wearing lippy.

Hope that doesn't come across as victim-blaming, but you see how they respond. Trans are a very tiny percentage of the population, all we have to do to get the manager's attention is to let them know why 51% of their business won't be coming back.

They respond to money, so figure out which pocketbooks you can hurt the most.

The boycott of the grocery store worked really well, figure out another business which would make a good target, and then boycott it. One business at a time, takes them all them down.

It's like there is some kind of mental hiccup that happens to otherwise rational people that they hear that a male identifies as a female and something mystical occurs that changes material reality.

I think it's a society-wide expectation that women are passive and gentle. Man claims to have Ladybrain and everyone knows that women wouldn't hurt a fly (until a woman does and then we're evil witches who should be burnt at the stake) so of course women and Ladybrain people should be put in the same dressing room. This gets the effeminate men out of the he-man bully class, and women will put up with anything, so problem solved.

The more I think about this, the angrier I get. That woman merely voiced her opinion regarding something she didn't like, and a man wearing lippy orders her to be charged with a thoughtcrime. And it takes loads of money for her to get out of it. I hope SHE turns around and sues personwithapenis for harassment. And the cops.

I wonder, if that happens and it starts to affect gyms and clothes shops in their profits, will that cause a push back where concern for our human rights has failed.

I also wonder what the gym insurers think of this. What would the liability be of a gym where a male assaulted a female in a previously safe space?

I finally read the (sarcastic) victim-blaming excuses on page 2. And was horrified. Because this will happen.

I feel like men hate us, and most women do too. I'm apparently supposed to love dick even while they're raping me. And then I'm blamed and harassed for not loving dick while being raped.

I want off this planet.

If the new hate crime law comes in...this will be a hate crime.

And let's not forget, the threshold for all this is the perception of the victim not the motivation of the perpetrator.

It's honestly self-ID for hate crime.

Very true LangCleg. I wouldn't feel confident enough to challenge someone is a changing room myself, but it will ensure women are silenced. I wonder if looking at someone "the wrong way" can constitute a hate crime.

One of my neighbours thinks that another neighbour hates her and stares at her out the window when she leaves for work...hate crime!

What I wouldn't give for an Andrew Gilligan type article talking about the Challoner case, reporting on Aimee representing the Lib Dems LGBT and showing that photograph.

It's deliberate.

Yes, it is.

This is (one of) the problem(s) with TW saying "but I've been using the ladies for years, and no-one has objected".

There will almost certainly have been multiple women and girls who wanted to object to their presence in what should be a female space, but who didn't dare voice that directly to the individual concerned.

Yes, quite. It's a tandem statement with 'no one has noticed'. Profoundly oblivious to reality. I notice almost everyone in the loos. I clock kids who might be unaccompanied, elderly women who are a little unsteady and might need a hand, a woman who has clearly been sobbing and is sorting out her mascara. I have been in the loo with transwomen present, and every single woman present knew. It might have been a double take moment, but we knew.

Us not saying anything cannot be collectively be put down to us not noticing or caring. In my own case, it was mostly because I was wary and stupidly English polite in person. I'm the kind of person who apologizes when people step on my feet.

It wasn't because I didn't feel uncomfortable, because I did, if not on rare occasions actually worried. But it takes a lot for me to speak up. This proves nothing about women's acceptance except that we really don't always feel safe enough to speak up.

Of course everyone knew. And a lot of us didn't care. Because it seemed like a courtesy, a tacit allowance of small boundary changes. Except in a lot of places I went (gay clubs etc.) where it was not 'my space' and therefore different. The feeling was that this politeness by the hosts was mirrored by a similar politeness on the part of the guests.

Now, it feels like some TRAs and narcs are deliberately pushing and trampling boundaries. Ironically, to the deficit of those guests who were always using the loos.

Men are shouting IT'S NOT YOUR SPACE IS OUR SPACE and women understand what that means and where it leads.