Self-ID in Norway: woman sued for harassment for challenging intact male in changing room

[arranfan]

It's a case review and it's a little bit more complicated than that as it played out over a period of time but...

July 2016. Norway introduces a new law which means anyone can change their "legal sex" on paper, simply by filling in a form....July 2016, at a fitness centre in a Norway. A woman is having a shower when a man walks in to use the women's showers. The woman is uncomfortable and after getting dressed she asks the man why he was using the women's shower. He replies that he's legally a woman... The woman & man again "meet" in the women's changing area at the gym. As she's already asked management & been told that anyone with male genitalia should use the men's changing area, she asks the man if he's been given permission to use the women's showers

The man shouts at her "What the fuck is your problem! This is non of your fucking business!" After this they both speak to the management and later on the centre replies in writing saying they now allow men who are legally women in the women's changing area.

The man felt the woman had harassed him by questioning why he was in the women's changing area and by referring to him as a biological man in a meeting with the centre management. He sues her for harassment, based on his "sex identity and sex expression.

The woman was just cleared of the harassment accusations. She should never have had to go through what she did, for questioning why a man was showering next to her in the women's changing rooms.

twitter.com/kajsa_skog/status/1050460469297856512

FPFW are aware - this might be a useful example for anyone filling out consultations.

But I thought self id worked really well in other countries and the UK would just be 'catching up' by reforming the GRA?

And of course, non-reporting of such incidents by women is massive and always has been.

But I thought self id worked really well in other countries and the UK would just be 'catching up' by reforming the GRA?

If by well, we mean providing more outlets for narcissistic rage and preparing the ground for a soft lead into totalitarianism, then it's job done.

And, maybe it will work when those of us who might have complained are re-educated?

Disrespectful

I can't be the only one who is wondering quite how determined that fucker was in order to sue the woman for harassment.

Because I'm not convinced it's mere entitlement.

This is where actual engagement with transactivists, or at least being informed about them, pays off. Instead of it just being an abstract concept.

The deliberate targeting of women only spaces, and subsequent recourse to the law is all part of it. They make it abundantly clear that they get the law in by talking about minorities, inclusivity and diversity, and then stick it to women as hard as they can.

In my head I am seeing the selfie Aimee Challoner took, halfway up some attic steps, whilst holding up a girl guide badge at the same time in another photograph.

And such a good job has been done, that women just have to suck it up.

What I wouldn't give for an Andrew Gilligan type article talking about the Challoner case, reporting on Aimee representing the Lib Dems LGBT and showing that photograph.

It's deliberate.

Hah! I love it, besmirching.

Perfect Besmirching

I’ll just have to teach her that changing rooms aren’t for girls.

That's where this will go if the House of Commons doesn't find some back bone fast. In the same way that you don't take your eye off your drink or walk alone down a dark alley at night, women will teach other women and girls that you use 'womens' public toilets and changing rooms with caution, in groups (or take your boyfriend or husband with you because women with penises fuck not with other people with a penis and somehow can always tell who they are ), and in some times, places and situations you don't set foot in there.

Seriously. It would only be a matter of time if this got through, before a woman who was raped in a woman's changing room/toilet would be challenged by the prosecution saying 'you know dodgy women with penises are a risk to women with female biology in these places, so why did you knowingly enter that place?

Agreed. It is only a matter of time before the victim-blaming starts: "You knew that women's lavatories were open to anyone with a penis so why did you go in there?"

Yep.

It is only a matter of time before the victim-blaming starts: "You knew that women's lavatories were open to anyone with a penis so why did you go in there?"

"Yes, there were people in that train carriage when you got on. But why, after it started to empty, did you not move to another carriage?"

"Why did you choose to partially disrobe in a cubicle when you knew that anyone could walk into the facility?"

That’s exactly where we’re heading because women (totally understandably) won’t challenge men in their spaces and probably won’t complain afterwards. We’ll simply stop using those spaces.

And if we do complain we’ll be told ‘policy, nothing I can do’/bigot.

Yes. And then we'll be investigated by the police and sued for harassment...

"Why did you take a shower when you knew that it was open to anyone with a penis? You asked for it by being naked."

Police: 'You want us to believe, you did not lead him on? Don't you think it is provocative to undress and shower naked in front of a man? Come on! You must have known what you were doing.'

Woman: 'I thought it was just another woman, who also wanted to shower in the changing room for women.'

Police:'But you must have seen the erect penis. Did you ask if they were a woman?'

Woman:'But, that would have been impolite.'

Police:'Please. Listen to yourself. Your story makes no sense at all. You would not have undressed in front of him, if you hadn't wanted it, really. And now you regret that you gave in to your desires and blame him for it...'

"It was your fault, flaunting your naked body in front of him her. What did you expect him her to do?"

I have saved the Brian meme. It will be needed.

The Brian meme would be great on a t-shirt

Excellent work Besmirching.

PLEASE can someone who knows how to do these things make a 'fuck off Brian' meme?

Your wish is my command...

That’s okay. If I can’t challenge for fear of being sued (as well as fear of being attacked) I can stop wondering how I should teach my 8yo daughter to do the same. Instead I’ll just have to teach her that changing rooms aren’t for girls.

This is it isn't it. I am already self excluding from several spaces (and also my daughter)

When you're smaller physically you'd be insane to challenge. Men do actually get this, they tend not to challenge other men who are physically stronger too.

This is why the deception too - advertising spaces as single sex (because that's what 99% of people think 'womens' means) and changing policy by stealth (guides, m&s, yha) so unsuspecting women and girls don't self exclude - as they would if they knew - and don't get to have boundaries and make their own choices.

Yes totally agree with the victim blaming. We’ll end up back to where we were over a century ago akin to the urinary leash again - only truly safe in the homes of other women we’re friends/related to.

Daisy, those are great. I particularly liked the second one.

datun did AC really do that???! How completely twisted is that person?

And I agree if someone can tweet Brian Wazzock then that would be great (I’m not on twitter either)