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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Karen White sentenced to life

127 replies

failingatlife · 11/10/2018 14:39

From the BBC [https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-leeds-45825838]

OP posts:
OrchidInTheSun · 12/10/2018 09:25

Scary but thoughtful Twitter thread from Richard Garside: forum.pictures/thread/news/could-karen-white-be-transferred-back-to-a-womens-prison/

Deadringer · 12/10/2018 09:34

This came up on my FB news feed with the picture of White as a man, and the headline transgender prisoner. This really is one in the eye for the TRAs.

RainbowsArePretty · 12/10/2018 09:36

How will this be stopped from happening again?

arranfan · 12/10/2018 09:40

Richard Garside has tweeted a thread that has shocked me:

Could Karen White be transferred back to a women's prison? The short answer is yes. Here's how.

twitter.com/RichardJGarside/status/1050653367641432065

NothingOnTellyAgain · 12/10/2018 09:48

Yes -

When Karen gets a GRC then Karen will be treated by the prison service exactly as a woman.

Clearly, women are not put in prison with men, as this would constitute some kind of human rights abuse I'm sure (although obviously putting men in with women on their say so (no grc) is absolutely AOK as human rights are for full proper humans not the subclass with the cunts).

After self ID any male prisoner who submits the easy online form that is being lobbied for, will be eligible for immediate transfer to the female estate, as they are a woman, and you can't lock women in with men.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 12/10/2018 09:54

In often cited Ireland that bastion of awesome trans laws,

They have self ID

Prisons are SPECIFICALLY excluded >> people go to the prison for their SEX irrespective of whether they have got the online form done to change their legal "gender".

RiverTam · 12/10/2018 10:09

I read, I think on FPFW, that in fact Ireland's self ID laws have so many caveats that they can be skirted pretty easily - basically, if there's any situation where there's a risk of being embarrassed, it's back to your biological sex you go. IE privacy and dignity trump identity.

LangCleg · 12/10/2018 10:28

Here's WPUK's piece on the Irish law:

womansplaceuk.org/the-irish-question/

However, the Act also allows people to be treated differently on the basis of their ‘gender’ in all of the following circumstances:

People can be treated differently in relation to cosmetic services that involve physical contact – for instance, hairdressing, body waxing, and so on;

People can also be treated differently if there is a risk that you could be embarrassed because of a lack of privacy;

People can be treated differently at sporting events if the differences are reasonably necessary and relevant and, in relation to educational establishments, having regard to the nature of the facilities or events.

Insurance companies may differently decide how much to charge people for annuities, pensions, insurance policies and so on, based on different risk assessments, if the differences are based on proper research and statistics (although EU law proscribes the limit of this exemption in so far as men and women must be treated the same).

People can be treated differently if it’s necessary for a drama or entertainment production.

A person making a will or a gift is entitled to choose whoever they want to benefit.

Services may promote or favour the special interests of one person or group over another.

Goods and services which can be reasonably considered as being suitable only for the special needs of certain people may be provided.

In shared accommodation people may be treated differently in relation to personal privacy where lack of privacy might cause embarrassment.

When the accommodation is provided by a person in their private home, if for example a home-owner took in a lodger.

When housing is provided by or on behalf of the Minister for Justice and Equality.

When the accommodation is reserved for a particular category of people.

Single sex schools are allowed.

Institutions providing religious training to ministers of a particular religion may admit students of only one ‘gender’.

Third-level or adult education institutions may treat students differently by way of traditional university sponsorships, scholarships, bursaries, and so on.

Clubs may be established for a particular group of people.

Any person can be refused goods, services or accommodation if an experienced provider believes that there would be a substantial risk of criminal behaviour or disorderly conduct by that person, including abusing the service and causing trouble by being abusive or aggressive.

A person may be treated differently because of a doctor’s clinical judgement in relation to the person’s medical condition.

Funny how UK TRAs never mention all these exemptions, isn't it?

deydododatdodontdeydo · 12/10/2018 10:32

This came up on my FB news feed with the picture of White as a man, and the headline transgender prisoner. This really is one in the eye for the TRAs.

Me too, in my local paper.
Out of all the hundreds of comments, I only saw one which you would say was pro-trans (someone complaining it was unfair to use the "pre-transition" photo, which the newspaper then changed).
The rest of the comments were gender critical to say the least!
I think most of the general public are.

Deadringer · 12/10/2018 10:32

In Ireland it's basically you can be whoever you want as long as it doesn't negatively impact anyone else.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 12/10/2018 10:40

LangCleng, thank you for the information.

RiverTam · 12/10/2018 10:58

that was it, Lang. Really interesting and yes, exactly as Deadringer says.

arranfan · 12/10/2018 11:00

Just dropping in Prof. Jeremy Coid's (Emeritus Professor of Forensic Psychiatry) relevant letter:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3373901-Gender-folly-in-womens-jails-Sunday-Times-Jeremy-Coid-Emeritus-professor-of-forensic-psychiatry-Queen-Mary-University-of-London

Serfisafleur · 12/10/2018 11:37

LangCleg thank you I did not know that

HandsOffMyRights · 12/10/2018 13:04

This is the BBC's response to my complaint about referring to a violent sexual predator with a penis as 'she/her'. BBC very keen to do the right thing and respect White's preferred pronoun.

*We note your views on the use of ‘she’ to refer to Karen White.

As you can see from the following paragraphs from the article, the language used in the report is consistent with the terminology heard in court and reflective of what was said during proceedings; for example:

“Prosecutor Christopher Dunn told the court: "She [White] is allegedly a transgender female.

"The prosecution say allegedly because there's smatterings of evidence in this case that the defendant's approach to transitioning has been less than committed.

"The prosecution suggest the reason for the lack of commitment towards transitioning is so the defendant can use a transgender persona to put herself in contact with vulnerable persons she can then abuse."”

The context and detail of the crimes, the court’s proceedings and findings, and Karen White’s history are clearly set out in the article. And it is a standard of our journalism to refer to a subject by their preferred pronoun.**

RiverTam · 12/10/2018 13:39

even a child abusing rapist? Jesus fucking Christ.

pennydrew · 12/10/2018 13:44

The bbc disgusts me. I’m so pissed off my husband worked on the original iplayer 😕

HandsOffMyRights · 12/10/2018 14:04

I pointed out that only a man could commit those awful crimes, along with the ethics of writing such a cruel lie - don't the victims and families matter?

On a factual accuracy note, White is a man. I thought factual error (as a last resort because their moral compass is pointing as far away from women as it could get) may count.

This story not only breaks reporting standards, but it breaks my faith in decency and it breaks victims' lives.

BrisaOtonal · 12/10/2018 15:15

Did any of you listen to the Jeremy Vine show today? If not check it out on player from around 1.20pm.

I was getting frustrated with the guests and Jeremy's priority of pussyfooting around the pronouns to make sure they don't get it wrong. However, there were a couple of very important callers to the show. One was a transgender M-F who totally disagreed with self ID and another caller was a relative of a women in prison with Karen White and she had some very disturbing feedback on her behaviour on a day to day basis. People need to listen to what this caller said. Also, very telling was KW's behaviour prior to their offences. Those saying that she is not really "trans" need to know that she spend a great deal of time living as a woman and intimidating and reporting her neighbours for getting her pronouns and name wrong.

Ta1kinpeace · 12/10/2018 20:13

A dear friend of mine was mentored through her trans by Fay Presto
she has NO TIME for
blokes with willies in dresses

She had surgery as soon as she was 18 - the month she left her famous boys public school

Its interesting that people who are truly trans (ie one gender trapped in the body of another)
are almost more offended by people like "Karen" White
than life long hetero females like myself

My friend is also very open about her birth name and quite proud of what she achieved as a male.
She would never sue anybody who tagged her in a picture in that name.
I worry about those who try to deny their history.

PS her boyfriend is somebody I've known even longer, who she makes very happy. She's odd, but she's her.
UNLIKE
Nasty predators like Mr White

arranfan · 12/10/2018 20:16

A dear friend of mine was mentored through her trans by Fay Presto

There seem to be quite a number of Fay Presto fans on FWR :) :

www.mumsnet.com/SearchArch?mustmatch=Fay+Presto&dontmatch=&nickname=&src_displ_option=s_m_d_m&fromDate=&toDate=&topicmode=chs&chosentops=5365

Ta1kinpeace · 12/10/2018 21:53

To clarify
NOBODY should be discriminated against because they choose to identify as other than their biological gender
BUT
they do not magically get the right to be all things to all people by self identifying.

NOBODY can be both - mammals are not hermaphrodites
ANYBODY can be one or the other
but only once they have made an irreversible choice

RiverTam · 12/10/2018 21:56

No, they can’t. It is not possible for anyone to change sex. Chemical or surgical castration, mutilation etc do not result in having changed sex. They can identify how they like till the cows come home. They can’t ever change sex.

Ta1kinpeace · 12/10/2018 22:19

Rivertam
How do you classify people who are in the multiple levels of intersex
eg XXY females
or those whose eternal genitalia do not reflect their internal biology

I have NO PROBLEM with those who want to go through the stress and trauma of matching inside and outside

I have a MASSIVE PROBLEM with primarily men who wish to be accepted as women while doing no more than wearing a dress

AngryAttackKittens · 12/10/2018 22:40

That's great, Talkin, but public policy cannot and should not be set to reflect your personal preferences alone. If some women object to males in women's spaces then the answer is no, because otherwise you're forcing some (more likely many) women to accept something that they vehemently do not consent to.