Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jo Brand on transgender debate in the Guardian

222 replies

kesstrel · 10/10/2018 16:45

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/10/women-avoid-transgender-debate-fear-reaction-jo-brand-germaine-greer-feminism

OP posts:
Bowlofbabelfish · 12/10/2018 11:28

As in there are extremists and bad on both sides.

Can you show me where the extremists are on the GC side please? I can see the extremists on the TRA side (bomb threat, physical assault, calling for women to be sacked, masked men preventing lawful assembly.) but I’m having trouble finding extremist behaviour on the GC side. Leaflets and stickers are all I’m seeing but obviously I’m missing something

As you say that both sides are as bad could you please show me equivalent behaviour onnthe GC side? Ta.

FermatsTheorem · 12/10/2018 11:32

Jo Brand has apparently said that both sides are as bad as each other. I agree with that.

Reminder:

On one side we have physical assault (plus guilty verdict in court), bomb threats to venues, blocking access to venues, threats of actual physical violence to women.

On the other side we have a few meetings and handing out some leaflets.

I say again - this "both sides are as bad as each other" crap is Charlottesville level false equivalence, and you should be ashamed of yourselves for promulgating such total shite.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 11:33

I can see the extremists on the TRA side (bomb threat, physical assault, calling for women to be sacked, masked men preventing lawful assembly.
Equivalent behaviour? As in it has to be the exact same otherwise you refuse to accept?
There's plenty examples on a recently filled up AIBU thread.
People willing to other entire groups on the actions of a minority, to dismiss them, to say none of them will ever be women, to dismiss anyone who doesn't toe the line of thinking. That's extremist behaviour too.
If you can't or won't see that, you're part of the problem.

Barracker · 12/10/2018 11:34

Jo Brand has apparently said that both sides are as bad as each other. I agree with that.

Bomb threats, physical assault, picketing meetings, getting posters removed, falsely claiming razorblades behind stickers, getting people sacked, getting academics disciplined, no platforming....

That's a small sample of one side only.

Remind me again what feminists have done that is "as bad", will you?

That's right. Insisted that being physically female means we are different from those physically male, and insisted that this real and factual distinction be recognised in law and protected.

I totally get your point.

'as bad'

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 11:35

On the other side we have a few meetings and handing out some leaflets.

On the surface, yes.
Jo Brand has said too both sides can be as bad as each other. Why does she get dismissed?

UpstartCrow · 12/10/2018 11:37

Oh here we go again.

Waiting for the long list of gender critical feminists that have made bomb threats to trans activists or venues, or punched anyone they disagree with. Or forced anyone to lie under oath. Or no platformed anyone.

Bowlofbabelfish · 12/10/2018 11:38

Equivalent. Not identical. Behaviour that counts as extremism.

Something equivalent to a bomb threat, a threat to life and property for example. Or physical violence.

People disagreeing with an ideology on the internet - do you see that as equivalent to threats to life, property and physical assault?

Where are the examples of this ‘extremism’ you’re talking about? Because people can disagree with me on the internet all they want. That’s not extremism.,But if they punch me, threaten my job or tell me there’s a bomb in my house then that is.

Are you arguing that people’s opinions on this thread are the equivalent to bomb threats, and threats of violence?

FermatsTheorem · 12/10/2018 11:39

People willing to other entire groups on the actions of a minority, to dismiss them, to say none of them will ever be women, to dismiss anyone who doesn't toe the line of thinking. That's extremist behaviour too.

But none of them will ever be women. That's biology for you. Damn that pesky real world, so transphobic.

Transwomen are transwomen, and that's fine. We should celebrate non-conforming people, make sure they're not harassed or discriminated against, while recognising that there are a small minority of situations where women need protected spaces in virtue of their biology or the way their biology is leveraged by a society in which sex-based violence is endemic. So - women's sports, women's prisons, rape crisis centres, domestic violence shelters - these need to be segregated by actual biological sex.

Other than that, present, dress how you like, call yourself what you like. That's fine. It makes you yet another variation on the rich and varied tapestry of human life, every bit as worthy as all the other humans on the planet, every bit as deserving of human rights. But you don't get women's rights, because they're there to protect us in virtue of situations that arise because of our biology.

Bowlofbabelfish · 12/10/2018 11:39

On the surface? Handing out leaflets upholding the law as it currently stamds is extremism akin to punching someone and threatening to bomb a meeting?

I don’t think it is.

Bowlofbabelfish · 12/10/2018 11:40

Do you think humans can change sex verbeena?

pennydrew · 12/10/2018 11:50

Yeah Verbeena certainly does. The idea you can compare staring biological facts, that humans cannot change sex, with actual violent actions against woman, is not just insulting, but victim blaming stuff that violent men use. My dad used to say it after beating my Mum... ‘she said stuff’

Gross. People that do this are gross.

Bowlofbabelfish · 12/10/2018 11:52

Its a bit reminiscent of the idea that women’s words justify male violence.

Look what you made me do...

pennydrew · 12/10/2018 11:54

It isn’t just a bit reminiscent, it’s exactly that and this poster does it often. I would advise not engaging. Their victim blaming behaviour shouldn’t be tolerated by any of us.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 12/10/2018 12:00

I would advise not engaging.

Second this. Remember the saying: don't get in the mud with the pig. You'll only get dirty and the pig will enjoy it.

arranfan · 12/10/2018 12:02

Narcissist's Prayer

That didn't happen.

And if it did, it wasn't that bad.

And if it was, that's not a big deal.

And if it is, that's not my fault.

And if it was, I didn't mean it.

And if I did...

You deserved it.

FermatsTheorem · 12/10/2018 12:04

Though in this instance I think a policy of "give a person a spade and watch them dig to Australia" may be working. That poster is establishing that they are to women's rights as Donald Trump is to race relations in America.

It's not a good look.

SittingAround1 · 12/10/2018 12:31

Maybe Jo Brand just hasn't peak trans yet. She's a feminist with (I think) daughters. The day will come.

She may even have trans friends who have had a hard time (and they have my sympathies).

Or she already has and doesn't want to go the same way as Alison Moyet.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 12:35

Anyone disagreeing, they're either talking bollocks or "just haven't peak transed."
Maybe, just maybe they just don't agree with you? Does not mean their opinion is any less valid. They don't need it insunuating that they just need "turning to see the light and our way of thinking."

deepwatersolo · 12/10/2018 12:35

Jo Brand has said too both sides can be as bad as each other.

Yeah, maybe they can be. But they aren't.

LangCleg · 12/10/2018 12:38

Maybe, just maybe they just don't agree with you?

Explain the intent behind the two narratives in Damned I outlined.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 12:40

Yeah, maybe they can be. But they aren't

How is that anything but a contradiction? You're agreeing that maybe they can be, but then saying matter of factly that they aren't.
Dismissing other women. As they're not allowed to think differently, they must be being woke or talking bollocks and just haven't peak transed or whatever.

UpstartCrow · 12/10/2018 12:42

How many women have to be raped by known rapists who have been places in their space, before people get that it isn't about 2 equal sides, and that women are entitled to make a risk assessment without knowing the full facts?

pennydrew · 12/10/2018 12:46

It’s interesting to me when people try to say that any opinion is valid or that one opinion is as ‘valid’ as another. It’s opinions, they’re valid to the person speaking them but not necessarily to everyone else. Someone saying, for instance, ‘ women provoke men to be violent with their words’, may well think it’s a ‘valid’ opinion, but nobody else has to. Nobody has to validate anything you say. You’re not entitled to have your opinion considered by anyone, particularly if your opinion is directed at women and those women find it sexist gaslighting.

pennydrew · 12/10/2018 12:48

I have shared this on MN before, but it’s super relevant today:

The problem with today’s world is that everyone believes they have a right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!

  • Professor Brian Cox
VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 12:50

In that vein, you are entitled to your opinion, as everyone is, but you can't expect it to be validated when some have an issue with all transwomen. Some (not all) views on here are extremely bigoted and not everyone will think the same because of that.

Swipe left for the next trending thread