Jo Brand on transgender debate in the Guardian

[kesstrel]

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/10/women-avoid-transgender-debate-fear-reaction-jo-brand-germaine-greer-feminism

Hang on ...... I said safeguarding need to be changed NOT weakened!! That’s totally misrepresenting what I said!!
Clearly safeguarding needs to be strengthened and made more challenging if we move down this path.
We would need additional checks and balances not fewer ..... but would that be a price worth paying to be more inclusive? Should we at least think about it?

What do you mean? Who among the AWAs are suggesting extra checks and balances in safeguarding? Every single proposal or demand from that side has been for less gatekeeping, less checks, less balances.

Have you been paying any attention at all?

We would need additional checks and balances not fewer ..... but would that be a price worth paying to be more inclusive? Should we at least think about it?

Explain how - given that organisations are - left, right and centre - ignoring safeguarding if it involves a person identifying as trans.

How would that happen, in your vision?

fermants

Rapists - if you are a sex offender, you should be in a specialist facility to protect the other inmates from you. We currently put gay male rapists in male jails? With vulnerable 18 years olds? Is that ok? No! Both should be segregated from the sex they attack imo. This should be part of the negotiation.
My MN is going weird and won’t let me see the rest of your post .... hang on

Because 98% of incarcerated sex offenders are MALE, there are NO specialist women's prisons for sex offenders. None. Nada. Zilch.

(Though if self ID and TWAW become enshrined in law it would be one solution I suppose - a specialist women sex offender's prison. Which quite coincidentally would find itself with... 120 natal women in there, and 48 transwomen, based on current stats. Rather a statistical blip if you accept the claim that 1% of the population are trans. Wonder why that could be?)

The thing is, Noname99, no-one wants to discuss any sort of ideas on this. Check out the thread, for example, in which it is revealed that Dawn Butler refuses utterly to meet with FPFW. Penny Mordaunt - she's having none of it.

As I said earlier - we're not the ones refusing even to talk about it, but get told (by you) that we're in the wrong.

It’s stopped .... weird!

Do women retain a legal right to organise and advertise spaces for born women only? Depends ..... why do they need them? I don’t agree with male only clubs either? If you are talking about rape clinics or shelters then I believe that people organising these clinics / centers have the right to risk assess anyone who wants to enter them and refuse entry if they believe & can show just cause. I might point out that the girls thrown into the Magdalene convents /schools are not protected because the nuns were women.

Do women retain a legal right to ask for an HCP of the same sex, not gender, for intimate exams?
No. Risk assessment should show that all medical personnel are safe and appropriate people. You do have the right to have a second person in too if you feel you need one. I never get this?? If you are women and the intimate exam means you need a consultant, do you refuse the male gynae? Refuse a male gynae when giving birth? Why is the HCP such an issue?

Do women have a right to object to playing competitive contact sports against transwomen, where they might sustain life-changing injuries (especially spinal injuries) as a result?
Yes absolutely in sports where a sex based physiological advantage exists.

These are the nuances we should be debating and finding solutions too!!

As for compromise, the Gender Recognition Act of 2004 was a compromise.

Third spaces would be a compromise - regularly called for on here.

There's only one group not interested in compromise.

I don’t like the both sides are aggressive. But I do think aggression breeds agression. I wonder how heavily that article was edited. I think the only way we are going to see proper debate is if people like Jo with a public platform do come out and voice their actual opinion, either way.
We enable censorship by keeping quiet.
We have a right to fair free speech. It should be exerscised at all times and especially in times like these where the most basic safety rights and freedoms of women are being threatened.

Sigh
But you are refusing to talk about it because you are just repeating over and over again that you will not budge from the position of no! There is nowhere to go with that...... and no one said you were wrong! I said your position was damaging .... I do wish people would stop putting words in my mouth!

Do women have a right to object to playing competitive contact sports against transwomen, where they might sustain life-changing injuries (especially spinal injuries) as a result? Yes absolutely in sports where a sex based physiological advantage exists.

You do know this is already happening, don't you?

These are the nuances we should be debating and finding solutions too!!

"We"? When the response is 'No T**FS on our turf' ? When politicians of all parties refuse to even meet with women to discuss these issues?

carrot
But jo did voice an opinion - just not a black and white one. That’s a good thing - we need far more of this ..... we need the extremists in both sides to be shunted to one side so the moderates can find some solutions.
And ffs will you stop with the “they started it, they are the meanies” - that never solved anything. Do you think the Ireland peace process would ever have happened if both sides just continued with “they started it”

Current laws aren’t working for them (& it’s no good saying they are because they don’t think so and that’s what counts) so we need to figure out what does AND in doing that what works for the women who believe that they want or need spaces that exclude trans women. Then we can work a solution

So according to you, women have to do all the work as well as all the compromising.

So just same old, same old then.

vicky Yes of course i know it’s already happening. And there will be no solution because each side is too busy shouting & refusing to move from their extreme position.
I think this is where I came in ...... which is what Jo B was saying........

Who's "refusing to talk about it"?

To quote Dr Nic from Fair Play for Women:
Womans Place UK and Fair Play For Women have both requested to meet with Penny Mordaunt, Minister for Women and Equalities, to represent the concerns and questions of the thousands of women who support us, but have not been granted a meeting.

A meeting to discuss women's concerns around proposed changes to the law (in a "democracy") was cancelled by Leeds Council.

Posie Parker has now been doxxed, and her children put at risk, just for having an opinion on the word "woman."

blardy

Nope - it’s representatives of transpeople and non transpeople that need to do the work is it not? Or have you dismissed the fact that their is a whole generation of young natal women currently transitioning the other way? Or do they not count ??

And there will be no solution because each side is too busy shouting & refusing to move from their extreme position.

In sport, the only "solution" is that girls' and women's sport must remain segregated by sex. Do you want me to get the statistics out to prove that allowing men in will destroy women's sport?

Refuse a male gynae when giving birth? Women traumatised by sexual assault may well opt for a midwife-led unit, or for home birth via a female midwife. I suspect hospitals would also be sympathetic to an elective caesarian under general anaesthetic in such circumstances.

Most women are fine with male professionals in many circumstances: it's those who have suffered abuse and assault from men, or who have religious scruples, who want to be attended by females. It's important to think about vulnerable women too, not just oneself.

A previous thread on the massive advantages male bodies have over female bodies in sport.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3151217-Stats-on-why-we-have-women-and-men-sports

vicky
Good grief - am I really explaining myself so poorly or are you just deliberately misunderstanding.
Please read my original post - they are refusing to talk because they don’t believe you are willing to do anything other than the hive mind TWANW - that is it - no discussion now fuck off handmaiden, troll or idiots. That was the damage I was referring to.

This is now going in circles - sigh

vicky
I agree - did you see my answer to fermats post. And if we were having a nuanced debate where all of the issues were being examined, judged and solutions found then I’m pretty sure that we would come to that conclusion rather than the current situation which is the TWANW so no to everything

Please read my original post - they are refusing to talk because they don’t believe you are willing to do anything other than the hive mind TWANW - that is it - no discussion now fuck off handmaiden, troll or idiots. That was the damage I was referring to.

Really? How do you know that? I just see them saying "No debate - TWAW, end of".

And the "fuck off and die in a fire T*F c**ts" is TRA willingness to talk, is it?

Never sure what I think of Jo Brand. She came accross as smug and righteous when she grassed up Carol Thatcher in 2009 (by the way not a fan or her or what she said).
I think she's likely GC but all too eager to be seen as PC with the media pals, and unlikely to rock the boat, after all, she saw how quickly Thatcher was dumped by the bbc. Hope I'm wrong and some of these high profile women grow a back bone.

kessel
So again you are talking about the exceptions ..... the ones that we would have to find a solution for because any law always has exceptions but can’t the general norm be that you sex should not preclude you from your work. Isn’t that what we want as women - judge us on our work not our sex? Should that be the barometer? Are you good at your job or not? Not what sex are you?

vicky
That because you are only engaging with the tiny minority of fuckwits.
How about trying to engage with the moderates first?