Challenging a man in our spaces

[scotsheather]

This occurred to me using the fitting rooms in New Look at the weekend, marked womens with just curtains shielding us in the booth. Person in front of me I was almost certain looked like a man, certainly sounded like one (or transwoman they would say nowadays). The young female attendant however didn't bat an eyelid and waved them in handing a token. Being too polite (female socialisation) I did nothing but just went in myself, going to opposite side from them. I suppose I couldn't be 100% sure it wasn't a very tall butch women with poor style, or a TW without nefarious ideas. About 5 years ago I wouldn't have considered anyone would try their luck, this is what is happening.

Simple question, would you or have you been confident enough to challenge a man in changing rooms, toilets etc. either directly or to staff? Would you prefer the risk of embarrassment over allowing men to have unchallenged access?

Am ashamed to say I would just leave if I didn’t feel comfortable. Not the ‘right’ reaction I’m sure but I doubt I’m alone.

It wouldn't have bothered me to be honest, unless someone was actually looking around the curtain at me changing, but that would have bothered me if they were a man or woman.

The question should be: would you be brave enough to challenge the shop assistant? or take up a complaint with the manager?

It's the shops, businesses, theatres, leisure centres etc managers that need to be called out, rather than the person that you suspect to be male-bodied.

It is their problem and they are going to have to get used to challenges, until they take their safety and security measures seriously, and train their employees to manage theses incidents.

In a women’s changing room yes as the curtains are shit.

In a public toilet no. Because Id be scared to

I'm going to challenge the companies, etc and demand single-sex provision - every time I need to.

Depends on the changing room. If the cubicles were fairly private, I wouldn’t say anything. In a communal changing room (although you don’t get many of those nowadays), I still probably woukdn’t Say anything, but may leave prematurely,

I think if you're concerned then it needs to be raised with the changing room assistant or the shop manager. It can be as simple as saying - there appears to be a male bodied person in the women's changing rooms, please could you check that they are in the correct changing room?

If not even the shop assistants/manager feel able to challenge anyone over which changing rooms they are in, then they may as well relabel them mixed-sex and be done with it.

I'd be too scared to challenge directly,.and would if possible just leave. I'd then write about it angrily on here and write to the business owners.

If not even the shop assistants/manager feel able to challenge anyone over which changing rooms they are in, then they may as well relabel them mixed-sex and be done with it.

And many have done exactly that from what I have seen. For this reason? Who knows.

I refused to shop where there were communal changing rooms back in the day.

If I were to see an incident which caused me concern, I would simply take my custom elsewhere.

I'd probably just leave. Sometimes it's difficult to tell what sex someone is. If the person was acting suspiciously I'd complain. I think that shops need to provide proper, enclosed changing areas instead of flimsy doored or curtained cubicles.

I can't see what's wrong with providing male, female and unisex areas now. Why is everything 'male' or 'everyone else'?

I'd also use the disabled facilities if necessary. Wrong perhaps, but if needs must I would.

The issue is the policy, not the person: I wouldn't do anything to embarrass the person. I would say to a member of staff if I didn't feel comfortable using a mixed sex space, and if they told me their policy was that I could like it or lump it, I'd let them know that I'd be lumping it and taking my custom with me thanks.

Meant to add: if this lunacy goes through, it's going to be important for women to model polite and clear challenging of staff and requesting a safe space alternative; it's only by seeing women do this that other women will feel safe to. As we keep repeatedly pointing out there are plenty of women who will not be able to share mixed sex spaces, who must be provided for.

What I would do is I would go with the clothes I was intending to try on and I would find the manager. I would ask them whether the changing rooms are single sex or communal. If they said anyone could use them I would hand them the clothes back and say that I will not be buying from them today because of their policy and then I would leave.

I was in some public toilets at a very popular children's activity the other week, when an actual male man came into the ladies with his daughter.
I looked askance at him a bit but as he was obviously just accompanying and helping his young daughter to use the loos, I said nothing.
So I suppose my answer is that if they appear to be there on innocent business and are not bothering me or anyone that I can see, then I don't say anything,but am more wary/watchful iyswim?

The girls at school in the changing room were convinced I was a predator. They made that abundantly clear. Destroyed my belongings discreetly, muttered profanities, just made sure I felt very unwelcome. The cleverer among them made sure to say to the teacher that they totally respected me, they just weren't comfortable with me in there. After all, I was in the minority. Why should my feelings take away from their right to feel comfortable?

Luckily for them the teacher made me go and change in the teachers toilets. My claims of violence were rubbished. They were 'nice girls'. It was best to move me 'for everyone's safety'. They were only looking out for the poor girls who were too afraid to speak up. They remained unchallenged.

Did you guess what I am?

What would you have said to the person anyway, out of curiosity?

I agree with the people saying it's the store that should be challenged, not the individual. I wouldn't be able to challenge an individual in these circumstances and that person doesn't necessarily pose a threat, but this isn't the way I want society to go and I think women may end up learning to challenge this or just going home.

This is the long term outcome - many women will stay home, we won't have the same access to the public arena as men do, or as we used to.

The majority of shoppers in women's clothing shops are women, if we hit them in the profits they will take notice.

I was telling my DH that if women's toilets all become mixed gender, he'll have to come in with me, but he says I'll have to go in the men's with him. Apparently he's not prepared to identify as a woman even for a few minutes. Or maybe he doesn't fancy the queues.

Domina - were you part of the group that commits 98% of sexual offences, and 90% of violence? (May have those numbers wrong, but they are in the correct ball park) and that the amount of violence by that group on females is directly dependent on amount of access - which is why currently most sexual abuse is committed by known trusted males - they have the most access.
If there was no factual basis to protest your presence, and you were a female and so entitled to be in female spaces, then those girls were unfair and prejudiced to protest your presence.
Please don't force false analogies. Let's not allow males MORE access than They currently have to commit MORE violence and abuse eh?

"Factual basis" ie known thief or violent offender etc

I would ask the staff ''is this changing room women only?'' It's too dangerous to challenge men.

I think I too would leave. Or at best hang round till i was sure the scene was clear.

I may ask to speak to a manager depending on the circumstances, or I might follow up in writing as I get quite tongue tied under pressure and it would come out all rushed and hysterical sounding, and diminish the point (and a written missive feels more weighty that a verbal comment that can be forgotten, especially if I can shit sandwich the contact for max effectiveness)

I have walked across a shop to another area and would have walked out without my purchases if it hadnt been available because my fears were not taken seriously.

I don’t care whose feelings my fears may hurt. Once you have been physically hurt you know the wisdom to ‘sticks and stones...’

@scotsheather - what does 'a very tall butch women with poor style' look like?

I would leave without purchasing anything. Come home and email head office and then my MP. At this stage I’d probably also email Baroness W. This is a pisstake and needs to be called out. Every. Single. Time.

Does challenging actually do any good? From what I understand they can say they are transgender at the moment anyway and be allowed in the space of their choosing.