Challenging a man in our spaces

[scotsheather]

This occurred to me using the fitting rooms in New Look at the weekend, marked womens with just curtains shielding us in the booth. Person in front of me I was almost certain looked like a man, certainly sounded like one (or transwoman they would say nowadays). The young female attendant however didn't bat an eyelid and waved them in handing a token. Being too polite (female socialisation) I did nothing but just went in myself, going to opposite side from them. I suppose I couldn't be 100% sure it wasn't a very tall butch women with poor style, or a TW without nefarious ideas. About 5 years ago I wouldn't have considered anyone would try their luck, this is what is happening.

Simple question, would you or have you been confident enough to challenge a man in changing rooms, toilets etc. either directly or to staff? Would you prefer the risk of embarrassment over allowing men to have unchallenged access?

I think we have to let them know in some way that we are withdrawing our business, and why.

I have C-PTSD so would leave. But I would also never return to that shop and I would let the head office know why.

Dommina
How I would have loved to change privately when I was at school. I was so ashamed of my body, my colouring, my difference.

The communal showers were humiliating. Almost all of us felt that.

My sports teacher, years later, actually apologised for it all. It was shit. Shit.

As for the changing rooms in this scenario, I wouldn't have been bothered. I think they need to move to a better design though with floor to ceiling doors etc. I think design is going to be a way of protecting women's privacy going forward.

Abitcrapper- no, but according to study linked, 40% of women in womens prisons are bisexual or gay. Compared to roughly 3.5% of the population.

Admittingly this is one US based study, but on finding similar reading and seeing plenty of real butch looking women on the Louix Theroux documentary, looks like those girls had something to fear!

Oops, study here
williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/williams-in-the-news/incarceration-rate-of-lesbian-gay-bisexual-people-three-times-the-general-population/

Dommina are you implying all those lesbains and bisexual women in prison are sex offenders?

Youre very very wrong.

Womwn have nothing to fear from lesbians.

We have everything to fear from men. Men who will insist on being in a womens changing room and cry discrimination when those girls complain, make me scared.

A male who does that isnt a woman. Theyre a male with no respect for women.

Not at all, but it's exactly the sort of statistic that might be thrown at me, as I am gay. According to the girls who made my teenage years hell, I posed a very big risk. And it's exactly why I refuse to base my judgement of a transwoman on statistics, and data, and the few extreme views on twitter.

And it's exactly why I refuse to base my judgement of a transwoman on statistics, and data

Oh dear lord. Then you don't have an argument, do you!? You have personal experience. Since when did we base laws on A Person.

Oh dear lord. Then you don't have an argument, do you!? You have personal experience. Since when did we base laws on a person.

We certainly do not base laws on the assumption that certain groups of people are a threat either.

Beside that I was more talking of my own personal response and attitude to the scenario presented. Personally I think that judging people based on the actions of others in that group is a sad way to live. Be the change you want to see in the world. And I want to live in a world unafraid of a set of genitalia, and willing to let others live their life the way the see fit. Once a person breaks the trust, there are consequences. That's what the law is for.

Depends, partly on the definition of challange

So obvious male presenting man then yes i have said something and would...but i assume they have just made a mistake and am pointing it out to them so wouldn't be 'challenging' as such. But if no change then i would tell the shop or attendant

A transwomxn (they can have the x i dont want it thank you very much) then i wouldnt have in the past and i doubt i would now...i really dont know though

Why should my feelings take away from their right to feel comfortable?

Why shouldn't girls have a right to feel comfortable?

Please, I'd like to understand why you think that's an OK thing to even ponder.

I mean girls are harassed and sexually assaulted by male peers and men on an enormous scale

Third of schoolgirls sexually harassed in uniform, survey reveals

Two thirds of young girls have been sexually harassed in public, survey shows

What is striking in your comment is your total lack of empathy or understanding for why girls might feel uncomfortable. Instead you seek to frame their right to be comfortable as somehow illegitimate.

Your only concern being you and it doesn't cross your mind how you might impact on others in a way, even if it's unintended, in a way that is negative to their well being too.

Yes you have certain rights but the entire point is that your feels don't trump others either. It's a balancing act in which feelings on all sides should be respected and understood in where they are coming from.

To say they are being merely being prejudiced removes so much context of the reality of experience girls face. They feel powerless in the face of someone they perceive - based on experience - as a threat. They are self conscious of their bodies because they are of a certain age anyway. They have self preservation instincts which can not just be overridden, because that's how your brain is hardwired!

Emotional responses trump logical ones in order to ensure you survive by recognising danger. That's how anxiety works.

If you are proposing that these girls are 'reconditioned' so their brain chemistry does not perceive a male as a threat, you are either off your rocker or pose a threat to women even if you are not remotely interested sexually in them and wouldn't dream of harassing them in any way. Why? Because you are advocating removing their fight or flight self defense mechanism. You are trying to erode girls understanding and assertiveness over their personal boundaries around their body.

It's not actually about whether your personal intent is harmful, it's about the wider ramifications of how including you in every situation has side effects which put the well being and safety of girls at risk.

It's not all about you.

And that's the problem and why this argument is going round and round. Because the unwillingness to understand that a compromise of interests is necessary if we have the safety and well being of all at heart.

BTW, the right of women and girls to feel safe from potential harassment shouldnt even be up for debate. Why is it?

The TRA movement constantly asks things of women which, if it ultimately had the interests of 'all women' - by any definition - at heart it would not.

Merely asking whether the right of girls to feel comfortable in a changing room is even legitimate is anti-women. And yes dangerous.

Changing rooms are interesting and something I keep reflecting on. Primark in my town have all unisex changing rooms. T hey don't feel safe at all. Massive gaps under sides of cubicles, curtains and they're positioned in awkward shaped space with many not able to be seen by the assistant. I was annoyed to learn my 12 year old Dd and her friends weren't allowed to use the children's changing rooms when she was there without an adult I plan to write to Primark as their mixed sex chanfing rooms look to pose a risk to teenage and preteen girls.

New look in our town has mixed sex changing rooms. In contrast they have doors, walk to floor solid sides and all can be seen by assistant who is always there.

I don't object to that type of set up but I don't think either company give any particular thought to the safety of their female customers. If in single sex changing rooms and I saw a male, I'd raise it with the shop in question.

Why not allowed to use the childrens rooms? At 12.

We certainly do not base laws on the assumption that certain groups of people are a threat either.

Where is this coming from? Of course we do.

I was DBS checked because adults can be a threat to children. I didn't indignantly say but I'm not a predator.

Going back to my earlier point, what would happen if I did make a complaint to a store assistant about a trans person - someone actually dressed like a woman - in the fitting rooms or toilets, the store assistant confronted that person and they said 'I identify as transgender'? Is it just going to be a case of everywhere is different and some places might ask them to leave while others will stick up for them?

There is no need for the store assistant to confront anyone; in fact if self ID goes through, any male bodied person in a woman only space will have self IDd just by the fact of walking in there, so obviously identifies as transgender.

The issue is that many women will not be willing or able to use women only spaces if 'women' means 'biological AND anyone with a penis who feels like being there at the time'. The store assistant needs to be asked where the space is for women to change that is not mixed sex. And to take that to the manager. And have to confront that no, women aren't just going to meekly put up with this. From that point on the problem is down to them and their policy, and what they do to retain customers.

So.... if "women will mean women, and anyone who fancies putting on the costume that day", then men must mean "men and anyone who fancies wearing that costume", right?

And given that the men in the men's changing rooms aren't trying to be in women's spaces, I think I know where I'll be safer. Off to the men's I go.

When challenged I can say there are dodgy men in the women's so I feel safer with "nice" men.

Dommina, the problem is that literally any male can use transwoman-friendly 'female' facilities. It is impossible to tell who is a threat and who isn't.

OP I would speak to the management in that situation and go elsewhere. I wouldn't confront the person. If waved through by a shop assistant they were technically doing nothing wrong. Although their actions were unethical IMO.

I think I’d probably just leave if I felt uncomfortable. And end up shopping in places with female only changing rooms.

I’m sure I’d feel uncomfortable in the mere knowledge that a trans person was in the next cubicle. Even more so since I properly understood what autogynephilia is.

The thought of some bloke getting his rocks off while trying to squeeze into a slinky dress next door would put me right off.

We certainly do not base laws on the assumption that certain groups of people are a threat either.

We absolutely do base laws on the assumption that people from a particular group have been proven to be a risk and/or a threat. Datun has pointed out about DBS checks, which is a great example. Another is the very reason we have facilities separated on sex.

I wouldn't confront the person regarding their right to be there. Not because I'm afraid of making a scene but challenging the individual gives them the justification to cry to any news outlet who would listen.

Much, much better to make this about policy and email management, instead of individual people right in the store. Unless you feel someone is in actual danger, of course.

I know a woman who recommends always "complimenting" the transperson "on how well they pass". Maybe says something like "my brother oops my sister who transitioned five years ago, it's SO hard to pass isn't it". Sometimes this woman will compliment their "cute shoes" and then place her own size 5 very close to theirs.

Def passive aggressive but it's not something which makes a reasonable sounding complaint.

Exactly Melanippe. Why do we have sex segregated spaces in the first place if not because of the recognition that some men can be a danger to women in situations where they are getting undressed? And why do transwomen say they are not safe in the blokes' changing rooms/ toilets if not for that very reason? Dommina's argument doesn't make sense.