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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

classic trans cult response from friend

34 replies

horizonglimmer · 10/10/2018 16:22

Spoke online with friend about GRA. She is pro GRA. Was able to provide actual evidence to respond to her points. She said I had raised good points but that she was unable to discuss with me due to 'my views on trans people'. That is, I hold to the actual definition of woman as adult human female. ( I also believe in fully supporting trans rights but not where they cause harm, or unfairness, to women and girls, as one group should never be put at risk/disadvantage to protect another).
I pointed out that the definition matters as if you believe anyone who declares they are a woman is a woman you house male rapists in women's prisons.
I pointed out that it was not unreasonable to expect her to justify her redefining of the word 'woman' but she got offended at this suggestion (apparently her right not to say NO to justifying herself is important, but women's right to say NO to sharing intimate or safe spaces or prisons with males with penis's and sex offenders isn't).

I can't help but conclude that such people refuse to defend their newly created definition of woman because, deep down, they know they can't. I'm struggling to think of anywhere else where people just refuse point blank to defend their foundational beliefs. . It's a very manipulative and dishonest tactic to take.
Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

OP posts:
StillAFeminist · 10/10/2018 16:26

It's like a religious belief Hmm

Carrrotsandcauliflower · 10/10/2018 16:28

I think people just swallow the inclusive ideal at the cost of common sense. They are so petrified at not seeming to be ahead of the crowd that they don’t realise they have been grabbed by regressive ideals dressed up as inclusivity. It’s a complex issue and I honestly think some people just can’t be arsed to say no to things.

VickyEadie · 10/10/2018 16:30

It's like a religious belief

It is - except I've talked to many deeply religious people from a range of faiths and (a) they're happy to offer what they believe is 'evidence' for their faith and (b) tend not to shout you down, stick their fingers in the ears and call you a bigot if you try to put forward a different point of view.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 10/10/2018 16:32

The people I know who are pro self-ID pride themselves on being woke social justice warriors. There is no ability to think critically or to evaluate a situation: it's just competitive wokeness.

GulagsMyArse · 10/10/2018 16:36

Me too, Ive had a rough time with some friends and was told “well what is a woman anyway?” 🤔 yep a real mystery that one. She did finally conceded that TW were different to women, when I pointed out it’s not a value judgment.

Also another friend said it won’t affect you. It already has!!

I’ve been quite careful since then. Approaching people gently and just see if they want to chat.

6 months ago I would have said TWAW because I’m polite it’s what you are supposed to say. I don’t want to upset anyone.

I never believed it.

I think most people are like this. They just kinda shut their brains down in order to do the “ right thing” Danielle moscato, and Alex Drummond where my peak trans when I suddenly realised what TWAW really meant.

Sorry I know it’s hard.

Lottapianos · 10/10/2018 16:43

'It's like a religious belief'

So true. I hear you OP. I had a friend disappoint me very much with his wokeness about TWAW on Facebook last week. He's a gay man who would describe himself as a feminist. This whole issue shows me that he doesn't actually have a frigging clue, and doesn't even see women as a part of this issue

Original poster
horizonglimmer · 10/10/2018 16:46

Yes, it is a bit like a religious belief in that it doesn't rely on empirical evidence or science, but it's not in that religious people are prepared, I have always found, to (a) discuss their beliefs openly and fully and explain why they believe (b) acknowledge that their beliefs are faith based.
My friend has always mocked and scorned religious people and believers in alternative medicine etc for their non -evidenced, anti science views. But I have much more respect for the religious people I have met than for her for her stance. Which is not just dishonest but completely un self-aware and deeply hypocritical given her position on faith based belief.

OP posts:
Poppyred85 · 10/10/2018 16:48

Did you ask him whether he’s happy to consider a transman as a sexual partner Lotta? Seeing so called woke men going on about trans rights and TWAW... right up until it directly affects them and then they either have no answer or tell you you’re genital obsessed. I’m looking at you, Owen Jones.

Imnobody4 · 10/10/2018 16:51

Spoke to a female Tory councillor - 'you can't see into someone else's mind so you have to believe them. Hmmm - just like they do for people claiming disability benefits!

JellySlice · 10/10/2018 16:54

Spoke to a female Tory councillor - 'you can't see into someone else's mind so you have to believe them. Hmmm - just like they do for people claiming disability benefits!

I'll tell that to the cash-strapped school I work in. Will save hundreds of pounds a year on unnecessary DBS checks if we can just ask staff and volunteers if they believe that they are safe to have around children.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 10/10/2018 17:03

you can't see into someone else's mind so you have to believe them

Great idea. That way we can do away with the justice system. All that a person accused of a crime needs to say is "Wasn't me, guv" and, there you go. No need for this messing about in courts.

Kinderlosigkeit · 10/10/2018 17:03

It's frightening because this is classic mob mentality being acted out over social media. To be part of a mob in that state is by definition to have given up critical thought and react with emotion. It happens too easily online.

arranfan · 10/10/2018 17:06

As a rough estimate - is this going to be like all the people who spied for the state in East Germany (estimated 1 in 6)? So, they'll have to be forgiven this aberration? Either that or we have to spend a lot of money on cult de-programming.

LipstickandPowder · 10/10/2018 17:15

Bertrand Russell said, “Some people would rather die than think for themselves.” I fear that’s true.

I have tried to explain that I am not anti-trans, but pro-girls and women, and that unchecked self-ID has the potential to do great harm, also to trans people. But they can’t or won’t get it.

Italiangreyhound · 10/10/2018 17:15

horizonglimmer I think your friend will come round in time but if not then she has shown you who she is. Maybe it is temporary but that is to be seen.

What frustrates me is that people will argue about this and may see me as trans phobic even though I am handed, kind to anyone I meet and certainly do not hate anyone. But I might be seen as transphobic because I don't believe any male who says he is a woman, really is. Madness.

It is exactly like a religion that has a very strong no discussion view of the world and likes to brand anyone who doesn't buy into it 100% as a blasphemer. It's very scary. De transitioners know how scary it is. I think the LGBT etc community will come to see this, but I think they will see it too late.

Italiangreyhound · 10/10/2018 17:16

even-handed

Original poster
horizonglimmer · 10/10/2018 17:50

Italian greyhound, I don't think she will come around. She's refusing to debate.

I doubt we are still friends in her mind but I don't really mind. She's always been hard work : )

OP posts:
BlackForestCake · 10/10/2018 18:07

Precisely, it is the aggressive cult-like behaviour that makes this unlike any other political discourse. The other day someone on FB was inviting her friends to un-friend her if they didn’t want to support the GRA. Nothing else provokes this sort of reaction. I suspect even Trump supporters wouldn’t get the same unremitting hostility that is directed at people who understand biological reality.

AspieAndProud · 10/10/2018 18:42

I’ve known religious scientists who can bracket their religious beliefs from their actual work: cosmologists who can speculate on the Big Bang without bringing up the Book of Genesis, etc.

Trans-ideology doesn’t allow that, it’s a totalising belief system.

There’s no ‘Okay, transwomen are women - but I’d best save that for the weekend. I have a gynocology exam to carry out.’

MrGHardy · 10/10/2018 20:28

Your friend very clearly doesn't actually understand the issue and simply regurgitating a political ideology.

Fucking sheep.

deepwatersolo · 10/10/2018 20:33

Wait - your friend actually has some definition of woman?

JackyHolyoake · 10/10/2018 20:36

horizonglimmer Is your friend aged under 30 years?

HerFemaleness · 10/10/2018 20:49

I'm struggling to think of anywhere else where people just refuse point blank to defend their foundational beliefs.

Cults.

It goes beyond that, it's not simply that they won't defend their foundational beliefs, it's that they can't fathom that there would be legitimate criticisms of them. You must accept without question all these beliefs and claims, and if you don't or can't it's because you are a bad bad person.

deepwatersolo · 10/10/2018 20:59

It even goes beyond that HerFemaleness. They can‘t even outline their foundational beliefs in a cogent, rational manner. They can‘t defend their beliefs, because they can‘t describe, let alone understand them. They just know what the buzzwords are they need to trot out. Without any concept of what they mean, cause they can‘t even define the words used in them. They are like the sheep in animal farm. That‘s why they won‘t discuss it. They wouldn‘t know what to say apart from those slogans.

Dragon3 · 10/10/2018 21:00

The thing that amazes me is the audaciousness of the lie. The dismissal of a material reality (sex) that is experienced by literally everyone on the planet.

It's more like fundamentalism than mainstream religion. Cult isn't going too far.

I was quite slow to realise this.

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