A few thoughts on the difference between ‘feelings’ and ‘beliefs’...

[Destinysdaughter]

The difference between feelings and beliefs. The English language is a funny thing and sometimes things don’t mean what we think they mean. So I’d like to talk a bit about this, apologies if this seems really obvious.

Firstly, ‘feeling’ actually has 2 meanings. The first one is how things actually feel, physically or emotionally. These things are real. Velvet feels soft, Stone feels hard etc. It also describes emotional feelings, things we feel viscerally in our body. So, things like anger, sadness, fear, hurt. We feel those things, right?

However, ‘ feel’ also has another meaning and this is where it becomes problematic. For example, if you said, ‘ I felt stupid’, does this describe a physical feeling in your body, or a belief? You may have felt embarrassed, fear, shame etc but ‘ stupid’ is NOT a physical feeling. What you actually meant is, you BELIEVED you were stupid. And beliefs can be challenged. Whereas feelings can’t.

And this is the crux of it: the conflagration of emotions with beliefs. How can you argue with someone who says they ‘ feel’ like a woman? You can’t. But what they are really saying is that they BELIEVE they are a woman. And THIS can be challenged. However, just as with religion, it’s about faith. ( which, again, you can’t argue with)

I wish we could use really clear, precise language with this issue. Men don’t ‘feel’ like they are a woman, they ‘believe’ they are. And beliefs can be verified by objective truth. Of course, this is why TRAs want #nodebate as their belief system, as if it was held up to any kind of objective scrutiny, it would crumble.

Sorry if this all seems bloody obvious but I’ve wanted to talk about this for a while as it’s more dishonest obfuscation of language. And needs debating.

#transvestites are not women.

Oddly enough this is something I’ve thought about as well, albeit in a very different context. Without going into too much detail but basically in therapy - attempting to fix an emotions problem with a logical approach is doomed to failure.

I agree with you on this context and I think it’s couched quite deliberately. Because you can challenge a belief but not a feeling.

So if Sam says they feel offended, then we have no way of challenging that. If Sam believes something is offensive, then we have they start point of being able to ask why. And from there we can challenge.

It’s also used in non apologies isn’t it?

I’m sorry if you feel that’s offensive
Vs
I’m sorry we offended you.

The first is not an apology.,

Good points there -feelings can't really be challenged but beliefs can.
The strange thing is, sometimes it's possible to 'feel' something but also know rationally that it's not true - eg feeling guilty over something that you know wasn't your fault.
Maybe the issue is what you give the most importance to -the emotional feeling or the contradicting rational answer.

Exactly. Which is why it’s so important to separate the two. You can’t challenge feelings but you can challenge beliefs...

Society does seem to give feelings more importance than it used to -not necessarily a bad thing, but we seem to have lost the balance. Sometimes there are occasions when feelings have to be put aside for the 'greater good' and many people seem to have forgotten how to do that.
There are times when a 'stiff upper lip' will get you through a situation where you might otherwise crumble.
Perhaps that's why a lot of young people I've worked with have very poor coping skills and find it hard to handle setbacks.

How can you argue with someone who says they ‘ feel’ like a woman?
I believe that men are more taken in by the "woman trapped in a man's body" trope because they in turn believe there is no way other people on earth (women) can have a fundamentally different experience on earth to them. The idea that men can do anything is an old one, and they truly believe they can do "woman" as well as any boring ole actual woman.
So someone saying they feel like a woman speaks to men, who nod along and think "how awful!" Men-centred women nod along in agreement despite not being able to put their finger on what "feeling like a woman" is for them, and having never considered "woman" as a feeling previously.
Being pragmatic sorts, we point out that this is nonsense but in doing so we're cruel because as you say, instead of challenging beliefs we've hurt feelings...

Feeling stupid isn't the same as believing you are stupid though is it? There is a very subtle difference. Believing is that you are stupid is a form of poor selfesteem or an acknowledgement of fact as the case may be. Feeling stupid is actually more of a mix of emotions isn't it?

@bluetitsaretits yy. The mojority of people I know under 25 are so quick to permit their emotions to escalate that they are downright irrational, I would even say hysterical in sone cases. I blame the way my generation was raised. The whole anti bullying thing went too far.

The mojority of people I know under 25 are so quick to permit their emotions to escalate that they are downright irrational, I would even say hysterical in sone cases. I blame the way my generation was raised. The whole anti bullying thing went too far.
I think young people have always been more hot headed but the difference now is that feelings are seen as "valid" instead of "irrelevant". Policies and rules and laws and governments are changed because of feelings.
This is why America is in meltdown over Trump. People feel sad and angry and scared and it doesn't matter in the slightest because their feelings are irrelevant, he won the election. Many are having a hard time coping with this and most of the anti-Trump comments from young people are about how they perceive him as a person, and how unfair it is to them that someone who isn't nice gets to be in charge.

I think this is a very interesting approach.

Perhaps we also need further exploration sbout what infividuals believe when there is no controversy. I am a woman but i also believe i am a woman. Why? There are few people who believe differently from me on this, though i tend to get referred to as mr annandale by people on the phone. My belief does not affect their experience of me but their belief does not change or damage me either.

This is so difficult to articulate because the word ' feeling' now means something that it really doesn't. I feel cold, I feel sad, I feel angry. These are real, identifiable things. To say I feel stupid, really means, I think I did something I wish I hadn't and I feel embarrassed. It's a belief, that might not even be true. ' I feel you were an idiot', simply means I think/believe you were an idiot. It's a value judgement, it's subjective, and again, can be challenged. There's power in language and we have to be really precise with our language to combat this, as they're trying to muddy the terminology so much that we won't be able to argue up from down soon...

I suppose another person's beliefs don't really affect us much unless they treat people differently because of them or insist we share them.
The need for beliefs and feelings to be validated by others is a problem.
I think it has always been normal for young people to want external validation, but it wasn't always unquestioningly given before.

The problem with this generation is that the word "feel" doesn't even get a look in, in spoken language, it's replaced by a state of being.
Eg it's not "I feel as though I am trapped in the wrong body" it's
"I AM trapped in the wrong body" and it's not "I feel offended" it's "I AM offended"

Feelings being replaced with indisputable fact.
"You are committing actual violence" not "I feel hurt"...

They've lost all sense of reason.

I agree that this is so important. We have gone from feelings being extremely and often cruelly irrelevant, to feelings being God (unless you need to claim any money of course then your feelings and reality don't count for shit). (Apols if I wander here I cannot sleep and have had some painkillers!)

We need be able to rationally look at the causes of extreme emotions and feelings and the beliefs that flash through the brain in an instant or in a more conscious way and use this analysis to work out how to help.

An irrational fear of doorhandles has no rational basis for believing/ perceiving them to be a severe threat, yet somewhere there will be a thought, a fear, a belief that underpins this extreme reaction. We can sympathise/empathise with the feelings and levels distress it causes but that does not mean we agree/collude with the underlying belief that door handles are 100% a terrible mortal danger, if we did no one would get better. People need help to let go of irrational beliefs and proportionately identify and live with risk/ feelings.

Our body feedback systems can be unhelpful sometimes in reinforcing that the extent of the feelings is proportionate with the level of risk/ threat in the hear and now, and sometimes we cannot believe what our extreme emotions are telling us, but rational objective reality is what helps ground us and help us find sanity.

But when we are considering people who have suffered trauma, and/or who have serious MH conditions, we have to be very careful and nuanced. Not at all how CBT etc is usually dished out on the NHS as a panacea, and as if it doesn't work then you are not trying hard enough, and not being positive enough.

I have PTSD so know something of the processes one feels, the challenges and what it may take to try to get better. It is not easy when some serious threats remain in life, that stir the deepest most existential feelings of fear and terror that some incidents awaken.

That many women have to live with perpetual threats (anything from money and housing worries to sexism, unwanted attention, harrassment, domestic abuse both psychological and physical, threat to our legal rights etc) often on top of childhood traumas and/or sexual assault traumas means that we live with very high rates of stress/distress which is not given credit as being a rational and logical response to circumstances, but rather is seen as irrational = have some pills and CBT and just be positive.

Some people seem to have bypassed this level of living in reality altogether.

I wonder, if some of this PoMo 'everything is a construct' groundswell of ideology is some people experiencing depersonalisation/ derealisation/ existential dissociation/ dissociation in the context of MH conditions that feature emotional dysregulation many of whom are undiagnosed and/ or under treated. Or unquestioningly affirmed. (PoMo is new to me in terms of having significance, so am only just realising that to some people it is a 'thing'!)

This is perhaps where the narcissistic/ annihilist/ perceived threat to trans people's existence comes from. Deep inside they believe/ fear that they are not real, that we will not see them or that they are fundamentally unlovable, before any signs of malignant behaviour really come about) That their deepest person/self/ identity has become disconnected and lost to them an in its place a false/ superficial/ constructed self exists. I should put the terminology in but just haven't the brain power!!

And sadly rather than being able to find grounding in reality, facts, rationality, safe attachments, meaningful occupation, etc, they have been drawn further into this world of disconnection and meaningless meanings (helped culturally maybe by films like the matrix, and being online etc). I just watched the BBC physics video of some weird bloke being up his own arse, and one of the comments was that he has so many identity possibilities that he has (and admits to maybe having) actually no identity at all.

In some ways he is actually kinda average seeming, and is freewheeling as many of us do/have but not in a good way, and seems to have the I neeeeeeeeeeeeeed to be special, looook t meeee and see meeeeee nooooooowwww disorder, and he appears to have a better grip than many we see nowadays.

We live in a world that is Potemkin-like, where media, social and propaganda and cheap goods (although less of these nowadays) does not reflect many people's real life experiences or sustainable expectations. We try to be/ are told to be/ naturally are aspirational beyond basic grounded experiences but the reality is that many will never truly reach what they aspire to be or have the degree of agency that we are told that we must have and should have.

And needs as basic as housing and some sustainable security have nothing to do with this modern superficial aspiration, and will never be achievable for millions of people now, unless something very big changes.

There was an article linked to on another thread that discusses the problems with women being represented well on TV in that it is good because it helps women and girls to challenge sexism but it also implies that the reality of equality has been achieved rather than being something we still have to aspire to We seem to be so challenged these days with what is expected and desired vs what by your late twenties/ thirties is actually possible.

Anyway I will stop now. I have only the feelings of confusion and wonderment (and tiredness) at the mess we are in.

I expect I will read this back another day and have the crushing feeling and belief that I am totally stupid and b really embarrassed!!! But there you go. My need to wonder and think and discuss is in this modern world where I am suck indoors, forever captured on the internet rather than in a classroom, religious place or pub where it maybe quite rightly forgotten.

I love reading everyone's posts on here.

Great post seafret , you hit the nail on the head.
There is so little real help for mental health issues. Couple that with the increase in social pressure to conform to unrealistic expectations and an increasing sense of general 'threat' in the world (environmental problems, the economy, terrorism etc) it's no wonder young people particularly are turning to dissociation.
I think it doesn't help that the media and advertisers know that emotional content has more impact- from touchy feely adverts to over dramatic 'reality' TV. Young people model their behaviour on what they see there. It's so immersive now that I think it has more influence than their real life relationships.

seafret, excellent post, thank you

I wonder, if some of this PoMo 'everything is a construct' groundswell of ideology is some people experiencing depersonalisation/ derealisation/ existential dissociation/ dissociation in the context of MH conditions that feature emotional dysregulation many of whom are undiagnosed and/ or under treated.

There is definitely research indicating that narcissistic tendencies are increasing in frequency and I’ve seen work which theorises that the internet allows and encourages such a concept because of the ability to construct and inhabit different personas.

Things like twitter also encourage it. People creating pile ons for example and mobbing women- they create a climate that only allows certain terminology to be used. In effect it creates a new reality.

I do think there’s a possibility this is one way of expressing trauma but it’s also a way to express aggression.

I agree with OP in principle, but I believe the issue is complicated by what drives the ‚belief of being a woman trapped in a man‘s body (or vice versa)‘. And that is rather a feeling, or an urge, to shed your skin in regards to dysphoria, and in the case of autogynephilia, also, an urge to have a female body and/or to be perceived as female. I think, these are really visceral feelings the respective person has no control over. And that is what they describe as ‚feeling like a woman‘.
Of course, women know that a visceral desire of having your period for the period‘s sake or an overwhelming urge of putting on high heels is not ‚what it feels like‘ to be a woman.

. The mojority of people I know under 25 are so quick to permit their emotions to escalate that they are downright irrational, I would even say hysterical in sone cases. I blame the way my generation was raised. The whole anti bullying thing went too far.

Was thinking this last night, I remember doing circle times with y3 kids around 17-15 years ago but it got a bit out of hand (I was inexperienced!) as over course if a few weeks they all got increasingly offended by each other and their feelings were hurt and the amount of daily tears escalated. I can't remember how but I had to change tact and be a lot stricter, recognising what to take seriously and what to not pander to, teach them resilience and ignoring skills while dealing with the actual bullies (not really any tbh). Unfortunately I think a lot of them were very mixed up and it was the first time they'd been allowed to open up but it definitely went too far.

People with dysphoria, and those working with them, recognise that the presenting issues relate to distress caused by a person feeling/ experiencing disgust, hatred, fear etc in relation to their sexed body. The corresponding thoughts/beliefs are that this can't be the body they were meant to have/something went wrong in their development etc. Typically, they are resistant to logic being applied, this is what makes the condition a condition. I think both feelings and thoughts/beliefs are significant.
In my experience with dysphoric people, the feelings precede the thoughts, the thoughts come as a result of humans being meaning makers and storying their lives in order to make sense of them.
One of my concerns is that there is a ready made, off the shelf, very broad trans narrative now available that people who are experiencing certain feelings can latch on to in order to 'make sense of' those feelings by attributing them to a widespread narrative.
For what it's worth, I do think dysphoria can exist independently from other issues, but increasingly, young people presenting as trans are attributing unwanted feelings to a trans narrative, which is disguising the real presenting issues. I think the Tavistock are good at helping young people work through this, which is why so many patients desist.

The idea that men can do anything is an old one, and they truly believe they can do "woman" as well as any boring ole actual woman.

How many times have we heard the phrase "the child inside the man" "the man child" ?

This idea of 'the inner child' seems to be related to men as opposed to women.

It's used as an excuse for certian behaviour. "Oh Peter's still a child at heart. That's why he can't settle down. That's why he's had a mid-life crisis/ran off with the 20 year old nanny/decided to cross dress..."

It is pushed from an early age that men can behave in a certain way because they are Peter/Petra Pan.

They believe it and we are told to accept that this is how some men are.

When do you hear about women's inner child? The woman still being a girl and that's why she's left her husband and kids? It seldom happens because we are conditioned to be responsible, to become mothers, to grow up, from a young age. From that first Tiny Tears.

It goes back to gender sterotypes again. This is why this movement is so regressive - it re enforces those stereotypes. It's about men's desires again.

I agree with your premise but not your conclusion. Yes you are quite right in your distinction between feelings and beliefs, and it is quite correct that in the context of tris issues, it is beliefs we are dealing with not feelings.

I strongly disagree that therefore beliefs can or should be challenged/disproved. We have freedom of belief. Trans people should absolutely be free to believe what their like about themselves so long as the rest of us are accorded the same freedom. The whole sorry mess is because badly worded legislation and guidelines that failed to recognise that this is an issue of belief has led to a situation where a certain minority is being allowed to impose their personal beleifs on society at large, to the point of criminalising expression of disbelief. Thus destroying freedom of belief.

I believe in the strength of a pluralist society where all kinds of belief are accepted and respected. There must be a way to accommodate the faith of people who believe they can magically change sex, according them the same respect as other faiths not our own, without having to "convert" our own faith.

It would be very helpful to reframe the language of our discussions to talk in terms of faith and belief, acknowledging everyone's right to their beliefs and asserting firmly the need to protect the right to believe differently.

There needs to be some proper thought for how to do this, including being very clear whenever there are distinctions made between male and female facilities or opportunities that in some cases the divisions are about personality and taste and self-identified trans people can be accommodated, and others where it's solely about biological fact and one's personal faith position about your gender is irrelevant.

Likewise as beliefs are respected it should be fine for women who believe in biology to assemble and organise and fund facilities which are run according to the faith position that science is real, without being denounced as witches and infidels.

Great post Kixul

kixul excellent point. Lisa Muggeridge made the point (in a video about the trans agenda in schools, I believe) that this 'woman in a man's body' idea is a construct, a crutch for adult transpeople to alleviate their real suffering. So, 'converting' them in debate seems problematic. (Therapy is another matter, but even there, most psychologists, even GC ones, will acknowledge that living as the other gender and even full SRS may be the best path for some. I imagine that often implies not throwing away the 'crutch.)
But just like Muslims and Catholics need to understand that their belief can't mean society has to refashion itself according to Sharia or the Pope's prescriptions, transpeople need to understand that their belief is not an absolute we all now must adhere to.

Kikul very well said. The problem for me is that Stonewall have redefined the definition of transphobia to mean not just fear or hatred of transpp but also, if you don’t accept ( believe) that TWAW then you are transphobic. So we are not allowed to have our own beliefs about it. If that makes sense?

I strongly disagree that therefore beliefs can or should be challenged/disproved.

kikul yes I agree. When I say it can be challenged I’m meaning in specific contexts. Namely in children, and when the narrative is being forced on wider society. An adult can believe what they want - as you say it’s when that belief has wider consequences we have an issue