A few thoughts on the difference between ‘feelings’ and ‘beliefs’...

[Destinysdaughter]

The difference between feelings and beliefs. The English language is a funny thing and sometimes things don’t mean what we think they mean. So I’d like to talk a bit about this, apologies if this seems really obvious.

Firstly, ‘feeling’ actually has 2 meanings. The first one is how things actually feel, physically or emotionally. These things are real. Velvet feels soft, Stone feels hard etc. It also describes emotional feelings, things we feel viscerally in our body. So, things like anger, sadness, fear, hurt. We feel those things, right?

However, ‘ feel’ also has another meaning and this is where it becomes problematic. For example, if you said, ‘ I felt stupid’, does this describe a physical feeling in your body, or a belief? You may have felt embarrassed, fear, shame etc but ‘ stupid’ is NOT a physical feeling. What you actually meant is, you BELIEVED you were stupid. And beliefs can be challenged. Whereas feelings can’t.

And this is the crux of it: the conflagration of emotions with beliefs. How can you argue with someone who says they ‘ feel’ like a woman? You can’t. But what they are really saying is that they BELIEVE they are a woman. And THIS can be challenged. However, just as with religion, it’s about faith. ( which, again, you can’t argue with)

I wish we could use really clear, precise language with this issue. Men don’t ‘feel’ like they are a woman, they ‘believe’ they are. And beliefs can be verified by objective truth. Of course, this is why TRAs want #nodebate as their belief system, as if it was held up to any kind of objective scrutiny, it would crumble.

Sorry if this all seems bloody obvious but I’ve wanted to talk about this for a while as it’s more dishonest obfuscation of language. And needs debating.

#transvestites are not women.

Exactly.

An important distinction is to make it very clear that we don't believe trans people to be "lesser"/"inferior"/"less valid" - they are fully human and each human can be beautiful and whole in themselves, living out their identity as works for them.

This is very distinct from attempts to use freedom of belief to justify racism, homophobia and sexism. People do not have the same level of freedom if they hold a sincere belief in the inferiority of black people, jews, homosexuals or women. Everyone is obliged to treat everyone as equal in all circumstances whatever their personal belief.

We are not fighting to categorise transwomen as "lesser women" and transmen as "lesser men" - that would indeed be abhorrent and transphobic.

My belief is that all humans are created equal, and that the only differences between men and women are in biological structure, chromosomes and biochemistry. There is no aspect of presentation, dress, style, career choice or personality that is inherently "male" or "female". Such differences as there are can be entirely ascribed to socialisation and culture. It therefore follows that any individual can make their personal choices of dress and style and tastes and career and express their personality as they choose.

I call this belief "feminism". I acknowledge that not everyone believes this but I have the right to believe it.

Some people have been so damaged by sexist socialisation and culture telling them from an early age that their personality and tastes are wrong because they clash with the outward shape of their body. That can lead to dysphoria. The sexism in society is to blame for this and must be challenged and changed. Some of the most affected sufferers of this unhappy situation will find some relief if they arrange for some sex-specific organs to be cut off and artificial mimics of the opposite sex organs grafted on. Such people should be afforded sympathy, understanding and respect. However, none of this fundamentally changes their sex.

@Bowlofbabelfish - ah I see your point now. What needs to be challenged is young people being indoctrinated into the trans faith position. Children being taught that they can choose for themselves whether to grow up to be a man or a woman is disingenuous. Children should be taught that this is something that some people believe, and taught to respect such beliefs, in much the same way as they are taught to understand and respect that some people believe specific things about Jesus, Muhammad or Buddha.

Trans people should absolutely be free to believe what their like about themselves so long as the rest of us are accorded the same freedom. The whole sorry mess is because badly worded legislation and guidelines that failed to recognise that this is an issue of belief has led to a situation where a certain minority is being allowed to impose their personal beleifs on society at large, to the point of criminalising expression of disbelief. Thus destroying freedom of belief.
Spot on. It's particularly relevant because it affects other people, as you say, whereas belief in transubstantiation does not.

Typically, they are resistant to logic being applied, this is what makes the condition a condition.

One of my concerns is that there is a ready made, off the shelf, very broad trans narrative now available that people who are experiencing certain feelings can latch on to in order to 'make sense of' those feelings by attributing them to a widespread narrative.

I think the Tavistock are good at helping young people work through this, which is why so many patients desist.
This is the issue in a nutshell. The Tavistock has the muscle to be able to work with people without being accused of transphobia, but we still have quacks like Webberley, a cult-like adherence to trans ideology online, and affirmational pressure groups like Gendered Intelligence or Mermaids fighting against the very concept of discussion.
Those parties seem to want to reduce the number of desisters rather than ensure the best outcome for each individual. That is very worrying.

This is very distinct from attempts to use freedom of belief to justify racism, homophobia and sexism. People do not have the same level of freedom if they hold a sincere belief in the inferiority of black people, jews, homosexuals or women.
Sorry, I disagree. I might not like those beliefs but we can't stop people from having them.
Everyone is obliged to treat everyone as equal in all circumstances whatever their personal belief.
This is the point for me. I don't care if the person I'm interacting with thinks I'm going to hell for being a homosexual, for example, provided they treat me as they would anyone else.

People do not have the same level of freedom if they hold a sincere belief in the inferiority of black people, jews, homosexuals or women.

They have a right to believe it. The law (and hopefully society too) compels them not to act on it where action could harm or disadvantage

A secular society should allow freedom of belief. It should also make it clear that a set of laws govern that society and no belief is allowed to disadvantage another. Everyone is subject to the law.

Also worth saying that tye person holding the belief is protected. the belief system itself remains unprotected.

I cannot abuse someone for holding a religion. I can criticise the ideology itself. I cannot be compelled to believe it.

Religion is a surprisingly good analogy. Which in itself shows you something...

There does have to be this distinction though. A conclusion to this debate that allows us the freedom in law to not believe in the magic of sex-change but obliges us to at all times act and speak as if we do would not be a reasonable outcome.

There are some very insightful posts on this thread. My thanks to the posters who made them.

I think if someone truly and firmly believes or feels something, if it is actually their permanent reality, they don't need to question it or even consciously have to acknowledge it to people and themselves or discuss it. They just are.

It is obvious.

It is when things are uncertain so much thought and discussion occurs. Or when there is potential for something to change.

The very term 'trans' draws attention a 'change' which indicates a certain amount of uncertainty. If there were less emphasis on being 'trans', and all that this involves, then I am sure a lot more trans people would simply go unnoticed, the cosmetic industry and surgery being what it is today.

In a way, I think what I am saying is, by emphasising being 'trans' the people that have transitioned score an own goal - they are declaring themselves as something different from people who are totally comfortable with their natal sex. That very same sex that the trans person wants to present themselves in society as.

Great thread. Am going to come back when I can write properly nuanced thoughts

Why are some feelings more inportant than others? Feeling like a woman is more important than womens feelings when this confused man enters our space.

Agreed. People have the right to believe whatever they like, but should not have the right to impose those beliefs on others. If Catholics can't insist that I not use contraception, then why should genderists be allowed to insist that I submit to a smear test done by a man if he believes himself to be a woman?