Is non binary about gender roles not sex?

[Jackshouse]

I am so thoroughly confused. I am a biological female, yesterday I bled the radiators, re pressurised the boiler and watch tv when my biological male partner but the toddler to bed. This is non binary?

Yes, that was pretty much my reaction @WichBitchHarpyTerfThatsMe. Formal GC education is about to begin, I think! And more time in the woods away from daft four year olds!

I don't think anyone is saying nonbinary people are fictional, they are real and exist, they just assume everyone else has the same rigid box placing view of gender that they subscribe to. Being nonbinary is normal. You don't need a medal or a special pronoun for not being a feminine woman who loves doing her nails and wearing lots of make up and wearing floaty dresses every day. Some women are in to that stuff, lots aren't. The people who aren't are still real and are still women. You don't need to make a drama out of it though. You can be real and valid without needing your own special box to distance yourself from the women who like feminine stuff.

Do non binary people claim that its a type of dysphoria that they can't help, or do they freely admit its just a lifestyle choice. Do they claim the mental health and suicide risk that trans people claim?

Like if I said she instead of they would it be litrial violence.

It seems to me that if you a masculine female or visa versa, like Lea DeLaria or Boy George, you don't count as non binary. I'm not sure whether that is because they are too old or because you have to be a mash up of male and female, not just gender non conforming.

I can't see how it's a real thing tbh. It's just gender non conforming people wanting a special label. Everyone wants a special little label now. Apart from those that have real labels that they can't get away from, that make people treat them as different and lesser.

What does “[X group] are valid” even mean? Yes of course people are ‘valid’ in the sense that they have a right to exist as they choose and believe what they wish to. But that’s not the same as expecting others to agree with them surely?

“People who vote Conservative” and “people who are young-earth creationists” and “people who think Voyager was the best Star Trek series” are all ‘valid and real’, too, but I still think they’re wrong. (Fortunately since they’re not Tinkerbell, me saying this does not make them stop existing.)

Did anyone see the absolutely moronic interview with Jill Soloway (writer and director of Transparent) in the Graun on the weekend?

www.theguardian.com/global/2018/oct/07/jill-soloway-my-father-told-me-he-was-trans-and-it-changed-my-life-

'They' are now identifying as non-binary. Apparently they weren't capable of booking a table at a restaurant when identifying as a woman; it also helps them stay relevant to the kidz Except they admit that this identity is probably temporary and non-binary is a fad.

Apart from thinking this person is an utter fool, it did make me feel quite hopeful that even people in thrall to this shit see that it won't last, so we will hopefully move on sooner rather than later. Of course not before there is untold harm done to women and children.

Have skipped to end

Just wanted to add and apols if been said

that the trans movement is flagging non binary "identities" and how they are not included and stuff more and more

It's all completely nonsensical

It can only be about gender > these people presumably aren't saying they feel like tehir bodies should be like a shop mannequin with no genitalia (although some do > yes > that can't be what most of them mean?!) BUT that's it's traumatising having to use things faciltiies etc that have male or female on them > but this is about SEX.

Why would a non binary person feel upset at using toilets relevant for their sexed body? Be upset at going through a door with a stick person with a skirt? Although there is feminist critique of signage (male as default, woman as "other") that is not their argument, teh door signifies SEX, and anyway both men and women can wear skirts as it's just a bit of cloth so I don't get it.

I don't get any of it.

It's all contradictory, self absorbed tosh.

Speaking as a person who falls under the "trans" umbrella as agender (or would if I believed in genderism).

And how does this work when pretty much EVERYONE IS TRANS if you use stonewall definition.

The latest statement is

"non binary identities are valid!!!"

what does this mean in practical purposes in real life?

so I'm agender (although not a genderist) which is a "non binary identity". I am also of the female sex which is just a fact and so I wear clothes that fit me (I'm short and can't wear mens cllothes although I prefer them TBH + boobs) and have a range of interests eg scifi fan, like cooking etc.

Why as we applying labels to personality?

I think for young people it's just the goth / indie / punk / casual / etc tribal thing from when I was young.

Perhaps us middle aged types should embrace the non binary stuff and render it deeply 'uncool'.

I've wondered this myself. What would happen if thousands if not millions of us fogies who are 'on the wrong side of history' (urgh) identified as non binary (by the definition used it appears I am also non binary - is this the same as when depressed and anxious teens watch YT videos about being trans and 'realise' that 'this is who I am and have always been'?).

I think that all of us non binary/NCGF* folks should be advising the TRAs that 99% of us do not agree with their views and that they do not stand for us. That they are fringe fundamentalists who do not speak for us!

Or maybe the whole shebang would just become an embarrassment to younger people once their old mums, dads, grandparents etc. start joining in too? Transgender could become 'soooo 2018' and the equivalent of dabbing/fidget spinners/saying 'cowabunga'...

• Non Conforming Gender Fluid / Narcissistic Goady Fuckers - could stand for either I guess

OMG and your personal deity of choice on a two-wheeled self propelled vehicle - she is a self-obsessed idiot.

So many quotes to choose from but here goes.

I will switch to calling Soloway “they” rather than “she”, because the book also takes us through their journey to no longer identifying as a woman at all, but instead as non-binary. The book is Soloway’s road trip through gender, and it comes across as an adventure, a grand tour, fuelled as much by intellectual, feminist enquiry as the urge to uncover one’s true self (Soloway also admits in the book that being non-binary keeps them cool and relevant to the younger Instagram generation, which is not unpleasant)

As a wife, Soloway found herself waiting around every Valentine’s Day for her husband to book a restaurant, which he didn’t do. Once liberated into being a non-binary person who dates women, Soloway writes of the joy in being free to call the restaurant to make the booking themself, and to give up this pretence of passive femininity

Oh and the utter drivel about Jeff Bezos and Amazon.

Honestly this woman is so narcissistic she makes Lena Dunham seem well groundedand down to earth.

Has anyone told Soloway that it's entirely possible to book a table in a restaurant while wearing a dress, heels, and a full face of makeup, and while making plans to shag a man later in the evening? They even have apps for it nowadays.

(If I roll my eyes any harder I might need to go see a doctor)

Also that article could serve as the extended answer to the question "what is gender identity".

It's sexism. That's all it is. If you honestly believe that as a married heterosexual woman it's not possible for you to book a restaurant, that admitting that you're a woman literally requires you to be passive, that's sexism. It is the exact opposite of progressive.

“people who think Voyager was the best Star Trek series” are all ‘valid and real’

@53rdWay Oh, now you are just being silly. Nobody really thinks that. Even Kate Mulgrew's mum probably prefers Patrick Stewart.

My inner 14-year-old-who-still-has-a-crush-on-Tom-Paris is stomping her feet and shouting “REAL! AND! VALID!” right now.

"Being nonbinary is normal. You don't need a medal or a special pronoun for not being a feminine woman who loves doing her nails and wearing lots of make up and wearing floaty dresses every day" THIS

Under stonewall's definition, I am non binary.

Perhaps us middle aged types should embrace the non binary stuff and render it deeply 'uncool'.

Yesterday a segment of R4 'you and yours' was about someone selling 'gender neutral clothing' like it was a new thing. I nearly sent an email suggesting people looked at average mums wearing jeans and a T-shirt or woolly. Gender neutral clothing in sizes and shapes which actually fit women are great (esp. in winter, I love a skirt in warm weather) but surely by now this is unremarkable?

I know this because my child who doesn't watch TV chucks a paddy when I try to put her in trousers (suitable clothing for playing in the woods)

Some of you have your own overly prescriptive views of what clothes are suitable for what. There is no reason at all why a child can't play in the woods wearing a skirt and boots/wellies. If anything a loose skirt might be easier for climbing up trees/ over gates than tight trousers or jeans with no give.

The rush to proclaim how gender non- conforming you (general you) are gets a bit silly when it merely rubbishes things you (general you) think are feminine just for the sake of it.

Gender neutral clothing in sizes and shapes which actually fit women are great (esp. in winter, I love a skirt in warm weather) but surely by now this is unremarkable?

You'd think so, wouldn't you? And 30 years ago it was. But sometime in the last 30 or so years it seems to have changed so that we're now back in the 1950s.

Alternatively, everyone is non-binary.
This. If the brave new world comes to pass and we're all asked for gender identity not sex I'd have to put NB. Damned if I'm identifying with either sort of stereotype role. If there's a notes box I put that I consider gender to be a matter of harmful stereotypes and my sex is female.

Non-binary means access all areas.

People who identify may say they are neither male nor female but also in doing so, will ontain the rights to access both male and female spaces and services.

The pushing for non-binary rights has potentially wider and considerable significance.

Ultimately as it is a gender identity and there are 70+ already identified on facebook, presumably there may be more? It would be discriminatory to accord special status to this particular gender identity as opposed to the others.

It seems best and logical to allow/ensure an open text box for all people to record their gender identity or leave blank as applicable whilst ensuring that sex (as observed at birth) is recorded.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? And 30 years ago it was. But sometime in the last 30 or so years it seems to have changed so that we're now back in the 1950s

Oh come on -that's an exaggeration. The default option for most people out of work/special events is jeans/jumpers/sweatshirts.

At a recent firm away day that was the default for most other than a small number of women who wore dresses or skirts. I think the difference is perhaps 20 years ago these women would have felt they had to wear what everyone else was wearing.

I think, although I have not worked this through enough to be sure, that the notion of gender identity has been mainstreamed from the medical literature because the concept of gender dysphoria cannot exist unless it is in opposition to something.

Hence, gender dysphoria - the feeling of being the wrong sex and unable to dress or function in the way traditionally asssociated with the other sex (aka gender) - can only exist if one assumes that the normal state of being is not feeling in the wrong body.

So how do you express this elusive thing that people who do not get clinically distressed about not being able to express themselves in the gendered presentation of the opposite sex and just get on with presenting as their own sex have? I mean, I just used a lot of words to explain what I mean.

Someone somewhere has come up with the concept of ‘gender identity’ to help describe the state of having/not having gender dysphoria.

Then two things happen.

Old school feminists say - we do not have a gender identity as gender is a social construct

Younger people (I generalise) say I do not have a masculine or feminine gender identity therefore I am non-binary.

Being non-binary is the state of not having or wanting to have a clear masculine or feminine presentation. Feminists have rejected gender so they don’t get the need to say one is non-binary - I think.

I need to prove this hypothesis by finding out the history of the concept of gender identity, but I will put money on it appearing in medical literature around gender dysphoria and not Pomoshire.

All I know is I am a woman (my biological sex) but don't understand this separate gender thing. I do want I do and I like what I like. I'm just being me. I guess I feel that because ( a mother of three in late 40s) I've never fitted in any society dictated gender stereotypes. Never have. I wear only lipstick occasionally, wear dresses and trousers, never high heels, hate fussy clothing and decor, like knitting, diy, reversing, studied science, electronics, maths, music and art. Don't get me wrong, in the past I was confused about it all, but now I don't care. Can we please get rid of this gender thing? I have no use for it.

I think it's an attempt to avoid "othering" people who experience dysphoria (partly out of kindness and partly because they scream bloody murder if they think anyone is doing so). In reality I think most people don't have much of a sense of "gender identity", but if we accept that we also accept that people with dysphoria are very much outside the norm and it's not a spectrum, it's a small number of people experiencing a very specific issue.

Which is part of why I think that describing people as "cis" makes about as much sense as having a specific word that means "doesn't have leukemia" or "doesn't have MS".

Op, what stands out for me is the performative nature of both the non-binariness and the wokeness. I have no idea how their proclamations translate into actual ways of being when they're home alone eating cheese and biscuits on the sofa.