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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Sophie Walker

34 replies

AgnesNaismith · 09/10/2018 08:09

After her article for the pool was edited from ‘women must stand for women’ to ‘women and non-binary people must stand for women’.....

‘The point I was expressly making was that members of the same oppressed sex class must be able to represent that oppressed sex class in politics if our voices are to be heard & we are to stop violence against women & girls which is perpetrated against us because of our sex (more)’

Nice to see her call out the pool who consistently pander. I wonder if Lauren Laverne might comment? Given her late night women’s hour on the BBC I doubt she’d be able to have a GC view.

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Lottapianos · 09/10/2018 08:13

Good for her for calling out The Pool. They are Woke Central on this issue and are unlikely to have anything useful to say. I also appreciate her point that many women would consider themselves 'non binary', but without making a song and dance about it

hackmum · 09/10/2018 08:14

The Pool are dreadful, aren't they? Absolutely appalling that they edited her copy in this way. They also have a reputation for treating freelancers poorly, but that's another issue.

Good to see that the original conclusion by Sophie Walker was clear and unequivocal. This is a women's issue.

SpannerInTheWorks · 09/10/2018 08:16

Also this bit: "It's also worth noting that many women (myself included) consider themselves non-binary in that we reject gendered constructs"

Well done Sophie

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 09/10/2018 08:17

This is a women's issue.

Yes, but WEP's definition of women has always been problematic.

Oppressed sex class though. Sophie's getting closer every day, isn't she?

Floisme · 09/10/2018 08:22

Well done Sophie - not something I've said a lot but credit where it's due.

I don't know whether that level of editorial interference is standard but they completely changed the meaning of that sentence and I would be tearing them a new arsehole.

Original poster
AgnesNaismith · 09/10/2018 08:26

Sorry I should have linked to the entire series of tweets - mobile.twitter.com/SophieRunning/status/1049550637917192192

She has written we need to identify the distinction between the intersections. I dislike the idea of intersectional feminism and think it’s divisive but believe her definition of woman is biological.

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TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 09/10/2018 08:26

That all sounded absolutely to the point to me. And Sophie is in a position to shift the Overton window if anyone is.

Juells · 09/10/2018 08:45

Women are not allowed even their own words. Can you imagine a newspaper gaily changing TM's or Corbyns actual words to suit the agenda of the paper?

'they' really think women are just nonentities. No wonder they're taking our identity and shitting all over it.

NoSquirrels · 09/10/2018 08:46

I am SO cheered to see that thread. Yes, yes, yes.
I’ll be all over ‘intersectional feminism’ as long as we can talk clearly and rationally about the intersections. Not just be expected to shut up and move over.

Thank you Sophie Walker.

OldCrone · 09/10/2018 08:46

"It's also worth noting that many women (myself included) consider themselves non-binary in that we reject gendered constructs"

What is the difference between a female-born non-binary person and a feminist?

scepticalwoman · 09/10/2018 09:05

Good to hear her speaking out about the right to speak about women without other people's agenda's being forced into the discussion.

FekkoTheLawyer · 09/10/2018 09:06

What's the pool?

heresyandwitchcraft · 09/10/2018 09:09

What is the difference between a female-born non-binary person and a feminist?

The non-binary person gets very offended when you call them "she" or "woman," and potentially may not identify as feminist if they are triggered by standing as part of the group of "women." Some non-binary natal females may breast bind/take testosterone also.

The feminist is unapologetically a woman who does whatever she wants, wears whatever she wants, secure in that being a woman simply means her sex, nothing about her personality and the dictats of how she "should" behave are ridiculous.

speakingwoman · 09/10/2018 09:09

ooh is she the WEP woman? Glad I joined now...

arranfan · 09/10/2018 09:17

SophieWalker wrote: Now, this is not to say that non-binary people are not welcome in the feminist cause, which must be truly intersectional to succeed

The discussions about gender are changing & evolving in thrilling & challenging ways and we must make space for that debate.

Let's discuss intersectional some time because that is where Sophie W seems to have some very different interpretations than Crenshaw outlined in her work.

Thrilling and challenging ways? We face the biggest rollback of our rights at a time when it looks to dovetail that into creating the environment for totalitarianism. Sophie W's privilege makes it thrilling because it's not a threat to her on the scale that it is to other women, perhaps?

Because, from where I am it is a prospect on the spectrum from disturbing to terrifying.

KittyPerry77 · 09/10/2018 09:29

I understand people's eagerness to make a women's party work but seriously, the tone of "oh, YESSSSS she's getting there" is like a mother getting excited about her baby finally taking her first steps. SW should be embarrassed by it.

This woman is meant to be a politician. She should be leading us, not the other way around. Move on people. She's a dud.

NoSquirrels · 09/10/2018 09:48

Depends on who you think politicians should be, I guess. Leaders of people or representatives of the people.

It takes a while to get really good and bothered about this issue, I find. You start off thinking tolerance and understanding and inclusivity are the aims for a civilised, nuanced outcome. Then everything keeps getting crazier and you start to say no, enough.
I’m happy for Sophie Walker to seem human and reflect what I see.

Original poster
AgnesNaismith · 09/10/2018 09:51

But Kitty it has taken many women a long time to ‘peak’. Many women on here are concerned about coming out as GC in their jobs which are possibly not in the public eye. She’s still a person.

I don’t know many politicians - particularly high profile - that stand up for the unpopular opinion.

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MissHoolee · 09/10/2018 09:51

The Pool?

Original poster
AgnesNaismith · 09/10/2018 09:52

And what NoSquirrels said!

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arranfan · 09/10/2018 09:52

SophieWalker wrote: Because, when government is exposed as rotten, civil disobedience becomes a necessary assertion of integrity and justice against tyranny.

Rousing words yet - for me, this does not gel with her leadership of WEP. I haven't seen her upbraiding Penny Mordant for declaring that the starting point of the GRA consultation is TWAW. And, aside from hand-wringing, I haven't seen much defence of the right of WPUK meetings to assemble in peace and discuss concerns.

Original poster
AgnesNaismith · 09/10/2018 09:53

The pool is a ‘feminist’ online fashion/news platform started by Lauren Laverne and Sam Baker (unsure who Sam is)

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speakingwoman · 09/10/2018 09:59

"seriously, the tone of "oh, YESSSSS she's getting there" is like a mother getting excited about her baby finally taking her first step"

ouch! plus you made me spit out my coffee.

Badstyley · 09/10/2018 10:06

Oh come on Sophie, you’re so close. If you could just grow a pair of ovaries........

I’m all for intersectional analysis as long as the intersections are actually analysed. Males do not intersect with the class of females, and females are the only ones who can be women. Go ahead and examine what it is to be a transwoman, or a NB male, it’s a worthy line of enquiry, but transwomen and NB males are not women, and should not be classed as such. I would say however that the leader of the Womens’ Equality party should be sticking to their remit, and if transwomen and NB males are now part of their remit, this should be reflected in the name of the party.

Lottapianos · 09/10/2018 10:38

'Can you imagine a newspaper gaily changing TM's or Corbyns actual words to suit the agenda of the paper? '

Such a good point. Appalling stuff