Can we talk about the differences between women’s and men’s sexuality?

[IdaBWells]

I know this is a super tricky one but the fact is that women (as many of our current threads demonstrate, such as girls being sexually harassed in uniform) are the sex that are predominately harassed for sex and that men are much less discriminating in who they they will sleep with? Pornography is mostly made for men, not to say there aren’t women who are interested in porn but it’s something that pretty much all men are expected to be interested in.

I am NOT saying that women are not highly sexed or interested in sex but that men are much more aggressive in pursuing women and girls and see females as objectified sexually in a manner that women do not constantly see men. Of course women find men sexually attractive but they don’t have the desire to constantly want to touch them or harrass them.

So when we talk about people “identifying” as women when they are men why are we not allowed to openly discuss the fact that they are not going to experience their sexuality like an average women. For example I often see comments by MtoF trans people who want to be attracting male attention in the street in a way that most women find offensive.

NameChanger22

"The women I know aren't in the slightest bit interested in sex, and that includes the women I know who are in relationships. They just avoid it where possible and put up with it when they have to."

This is certainly what women tell me. I used to be like this bit I'm making more of an effort not to be! However, I do feel at any time I could go back to that position quite easily!

beenandgoneandbackagain, I'm amazes you have sex twice a day! That is quite an achievement. Can I ask if it is a new relationship? You don't need to answer at all. it's encouraging in a way because my own experience is that the more you have it the more you want it and conversely the less you have it the less you can be bothered!

The women I know aren't in the slightest bit interested in sex, and that includes the women I know who are in relationships. They just avoid it where possible and put up with it when they have to

I think this is a bit of an oversimplification. In my opinion - EXTRAPOLATING FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE KLAXON - most women are not interested in the sex that is available to them in their specific circumstances, and have less of a need than men to just have any old sex that’s on offer. But I think many (most?) women will go through periods of their life where they experience high libido - e.g. when they have a new partner or a potential new partner. The average female libido is just less CONSISTENTLY high throughout life IMO, and more subject to circumstance.

Again - total speculation based on anecdotal evidence! I welcome alternative points of view.

Turph I've never heard of 'limerance' before.

sawdustformypony funny insel poem!

NotDavidTennant I completely agree with you, 1,000 years plus would not see comparable numbers of womem doing what some men do.

Sloth "The average man’s preoccupation with sex is so obviously a weakness. " I completely agree.

It reminds me of those brown bears whose species bred smaller females because it meant it was easier for the female to support herself and her baby!

I read it and I cannot find it anywhere now! It looked like being bigger was the advantage for the male bit it wasn't. That suggests evolution within the sex of a species. I find it hard to believe yet also utterly compelling too!

Turph "Here's an example. If a woman "gives it up" on the first date, that is expected to mean the man will judge her, think less of her and be less willing to have a relationship with her. He won't turn her down, obviously.
I've been on dates with women who have never had sex with men who have said similar, that they'd like some more dates before we have sex. Now I see that as the woman not being that interested, after all, there's no social judgement from me and she knows that (we have probably discussed it). So I'm likely to disengage because her being so invested in heterosexual cultural norms is off-putting and I don't want to feel like sex is something I've been "allowed to do to someone". "

*Your choice but that sounds shallow to me. The person you date has a certain respect for her own bodily autonomy and you see that a negative.

I think they are wise, their heart might get broken!

Of course sex is something you are allowed to do, or not, I find it unusual that this would somehow detract from it for you. It doesn't mean they are not interested in you IMHO. It suggests you are only interested in them on your terms. Which is fine. It also shows the other woman is creating her own boundaries, IMHO.

'... no men were harmed in the making of this episode'

I am not a lesbian so feel free to ignore me but I don't see this as anything to do with heteronormality at all. More that maybe you just aren't that onto her.

Deepwater: So, that experience made me take the whole ‚different sex drive of the sexes‘ thing with a grain of salt. As always, it may be overlapping Gaussian curves with differing averages and a lot of overlap plus depending on socialization and societal structure.

Haven't got to the end yet, but wanted to comment on this. That certainly speaks to my experience. In many ways my sexuality is what society constructs as and interprets as "male": I do make fairly snap decisions on "fancy/not with someone else's" within a very short time of meeting someone, I am visual, my ideal sex is short and to the point (can't be bothered with hours of foreplay, I go off the boil). At the same time, I do have a "socially feminine" attitude to sex within relationships - casual sex doesn't do it for me (for that matter, I've known quite a few men who feel like that too...) Anyway, back to the thread now...

that sounds shallow to me
Quite possibly. At the time I hated the idea that sex was some delicate flower presented to me as a trophy. I preferred to think of it as mutually enjoyable activity. And I was only talking about specific circumstances where the other person said that yes, she was sexually interested but was going to stop herself because those were the rules.
But yeah, it probably was shallow.

Phew Turph you took that better than I expected!

If it isn't presumptuous to ask, how far do you think it's possible even for two "gold star" lesbians (apologies for using the phrase, but someone used it upthread, so I'm kind of picking up the idea and running with it) to have a sexuality unfettered by the male gaze? I mean, it's bloody everywhere. I think some of my earliest awareness of adult sexuality as a kid (under 10) came from the very sexist, misogynist attitudes in the Bond films (bleurgh) - which would have been way before I realised I was straight, and presumably similar influences would be at work on lesbians way before they realised they were gay.

how far do you think it's possible even for two "gold star" lesbians to have a sexuality unfettered by the male gaze
Personally I don't think it's possible at all. Perhaps in a convent? Nobody lives apart from men otherwise, or outside a society that has fixed ideas of attractiveness. Even if an individual rejects those ideals she is still affected by them.
I don't like the "gold star" designation because it implies women who have had sex with men are in some way unclean, and that's misogynistic.

Forgot to add - I still use the term as it is clearly understood.

Turph

"how far do you think it's possible even for two "gold star" lesbians to have a sexuality unfettered by the male gaze
Personally I don't think it's possible at all."

I'm not sure I agree that it is not possible for women to have a sexuality unfettered by the male gaze, in other words I think it is possible. I won't speak on behalf of lesbians, as I've obviously already 'outed' myself as straight! But even as a straight woman I would like to say that I think it is possible for my sexuality to be to some degree 'unfettered by the male gaze'.

unfettered
ʌnˈfɛtəd/Submit
adjective
not confined or restricted.

My sex life is not confined or restricted to the male gaze (we do it in the dark!) That last bit was a joke!

I think that a reluctance to have sex with someone you don't know reasonably well could actually be based on issues around trust, rather than on social ideas of what's "right". And I imagine that how important trust is in a sexual encounter will vary fairly widely from one individual to another, depending on their personality and their previous experiences.

It's also worth being aware that psychologists now think that the oxytocin produced by orgasm is a factor in promoting feelings of love and attachment. Again, although this would vary from individual to individual, and depend on situation as well, it's worth considering in relation to what Italian said earlier about being wary of getting your heart broken.

As always, it may be overlapping Gaussian curves with differing averages and a lot of overlap

This is an important point to bear in mind. I can't think of any human behaviour where that is not the case. Social scientists tend to take that proviso for granted when they talk about something being "innate", because it gets tedious to constantly be spelling it out, or because they're communicating with other social scientists who also take it for granted. And then even when it is spelled out, for example by using the phrase "tendency to", a lot of people don't realise that the phrase 'tendency to' refers to the population as a whole (and so varies between individuals), rather than that every individual in the population has the same degree of tendency to behave in a certain way.

plus depending on socialization and societal structure. Yes, because social factors that could influence libido would include those that promote or diminish mental well-being, for example.

This is really interesting.

As my feminism has evolved over the last couple of years, so has my understanding of my sexuality to a degree. I am somewhere along the transition from cool girl lib fem to rad fem, but the area of life where I retain more cool girl tendencies is definitely sex.

To put it bluntly, some of the stuff that turns me on I now consider problematic to varying degrees. But it is surprisingly hard to unpick that, even with a supportive DH, because some of those arousal pathways seem to be fairly hardwired.

I find it impossible to imagine what my sexuality and preferences would be if they hadn't been so heavily influenced by patriarchy, and specifically by the pornified culture which influenced my partners and to some extent me in my 20s.

BTW, am not talking about anything too out there, just the sort of thing that has become standard in heterosexual relationships but probably shouldn't be!

On Monday there was a programme on Radio 4 called Start the Week.

www.bbc.co.uk/radio/play/m0000nlv

"It’s nearly a century since the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator was first conceived. It has gone on to become a multi-million pound industry categorising people from thinking introverts to feeling extroverts. But the mother-daughter team who came up with the idea had no psychological expertise and the test itself has no scientific basis, as the author Merve Emre explains to Tom Sutcliffe.

Our genes are the most important factor in shaping who we are, according to the psychologist Robert Plomin. He argues that DNA influences everything from physical traits to intelligence and personality, and that nature not only trumps nurture, but is the main driver of it too.

But the educationalist Naomi Eisenstadt argues that environment has a significant impact on children, especially in their early years. Eisenstadt was the first director of the Sure Start Unit when it was set up at the end of the 1990s and has been a government advisor on education and inequality. She questions whether there is any role for DNA testing in government policy.

Producer: Katy Hickman"

It was the bit about DNA that interested me. It seems that we are to a large extent the product of our genes. Not just the obvious cases of a one off gene causing an illness but more the thousands of genes that make us up. Surely that would affect sexuality too?

italiangreyhound it's a fairly new relationship, coming up to two years. My previous experience suggests regular sex begins to wain around the six month mark, and to be honest, this is the first relationship I've had where I can see me still wanting him at 90.

I've had a fairly large number of lovers overall, including the long term relationship ones, and he is sadly, the first man who has genuinely thought about my needs and wants, rather than using my orgasms to boost his ego.

His attitude to porn and prostitutes is also very different to most men.

thetrickywitch I find your comments very interesting. I guess when it comes to sex I'm slightly further along the path you seem to be following. I do fear for my daughter, that she won't have the option to explore her sexual needs and desires outside of the heavily pornified society that is developing.

Glad your partner is so caring beenandgoneandbackagain.

My husband also really cares about my pleasure, big-time. I've still had times in the last almost 2 decades where sex has felt like a chore!

I've also managed to avoid porn and avoid men who watch porn and increasingly see porn as a very negative dehumanizing influence on men, women and society.