Can we talk about the differences between women’s and men’s sexuality?

[IdaBWells]

I know this is a super tricky one but the fact is that women (as many of our current threads demonstrate, such as girls being sexually harassed in uniform) are the sex that are predominately harassed for sex and that men are much less discriminating in who they they will sleep with? Pornography is mostly made for men, not to say there aren’t women who are interested in porn but it’s something that pretty much all men are expected to be interested in.

I am NOT saying that women are not highly sexed or interested in sex but that men are much more aggressive in pursuing women and girls and see females as objectified sexually in a manner that women do not constantly see men. Of course women find men sexually attractive but they don’t have the desire to constantly want to touch them or harrass them.

So when we talk about people “identifying” as women when they are men why are we not allowed to openly discuss the fact that they are not going to experience their sexuality like an average women. For example I often see comments by MtoF trans people who want to be attracting male attention in the street in a way that most women find offensive.

BananaBonanza
That's a good point. It reminds me of the chap thrown out of KSA because he was too handsome. Presumably the Saudis think women are visual. link to handsome chap

@EBearhug

When I'm sexuall'y attracted to someone, I do have a desire to constantly want to touch them. But I also know it's socially unacceptable to do so, especially if that desire is not reciprocated

Yep this totally. I will be in some kind of physical contact a lot of the time we are together whether that's holding hands touching his back etc. Thankfully he doesnt seem to mind. But if hes touched out i would stop.

But the innate need for physical contact itself is absolutely not gendered

I do wonder why it would actually matter if women's sexuality turned out to be innately different to men's? Why do some seem to believe that having a high libido, being aroused by visual stimuli, and being willing to have sex with lots of different people is somehow better, to the extent that we are keen to come up with reasons why it's oppression that's made us not like that? Is it because we've been socialised to believe that whatever men want/do must be superior, and that to be equal we have to be the same as them?

There is actually a very good reason why for tens of thousands of years women haven't been exploring their sexuality as freely as men do, and it's related to our biology: the likelihood that (until 50 years ago) we would end up with an unwanted pregnancy. There are good evolutionary reasons why our greater "pickiness" with regard to sex might turn out to be innate. Maybe women will never turn out to have a sexuality that is similar to men's, no matter how our culture changes? Would there be something wrong with that?

So I have a sneaking suspicion those incels would have been single in Victorian times and blaming it on something else, the influx of Irish maybe?

try the 1340s

They want to be seen as the hot lesbians in the porn that they watch. That's from a self-confessed autogynephiliac.

That's a good point, kesstrel.
It makes total sense for women to be pickier.

Also are we conflating casual sex and committed sex.

There's huge amounts wrong with what you have just written.

Paedophilia bestiality etc may all be natural but socialization correctly says this is wrong and should be repressed. This is positive socialization on sexuality.

Now what is inherently wrong in a fully consenting situation, a adult woman watching a video of people having sex....

Or having rough sex if actually that's what turns her on

And why do we assume a woman wouldn't find that every but as stimulating as a man? Especially when there are women saying "well I do"....

(Putting aside the difficulties of consent for a moment)

Its still one person imposing their view of sexuality on someone else. By stating woman and men are innately different we are perpetuating the myth that woman's sexuality is somehow wrong.

Why do some seem to believe that having a high libido, being aroused by visual stimuli, and being willing to have sex with lots of different people

Why is it assumed this is gendered sexuality wise as opposed to individualised? And mores to the pont why is it wrong for euther gender to behave in this way if consent and health are taken care off?

What an interesting conversation. I am not sure I have that much to add but here are some random thoughts anyway.

Male and female bodies are biologically different - inherently so with regards to sex because we have different genitals. This is bound to have an effect on our sexualities. From all my experience chatting with friends one of the major problems in all relationships is a lack of sex drive on the mans part. Women have a much higher sex drive and are also able to maintain sexual arousal for hours at a time.

That being said the largest sex organ in the body is the human brain - and we all know where we stand re lady brains (i.e. sexist junk science.)

I am only just realising how estranged from my own sexuality I actually am. So much of sexual desire is socially constructed - through a male gaze and a mans understanding of the world. How to construct from scratch what a female sexuality would even be when we've alreay been conditioned since birth to see the world through a certain prism.

Girls aren't encouraged at all to explore their sexuality. The message from a very young age is watch out, males only want one thing, teenage pregnancy is bad and you should save your virginity for someone special.
Added to the fact that first time sex for women is generally painful, it's not really surprising that they say (studies ? ) that women hit their sexual peak in their thirties.

I wonder if there's something in the whole idea that, for example, I like a cup of tea (seems appropriate) - but, if whenever I left the house, people on the street were yelling out tea-related comments, if the place was covered with posters of women like me holding teabags, if my partner bought me a mug every birthday, and expected me to drink tea a certain number of times a week, and got grumpy if I didn't, and watched videos of other people drinking weak tea with lemon, when I like it with milk and he thought I should drink my tea with lemon and kept trying to make it for me that way, then perhaps, I might decide that tea isn't all it's cracked up to be.

I do wonder why it would actuallymatterif women's sexuality turned out to be innately different to men's?

It would probably matter in terms of how libido (and lack of it) can be medicalised.

Micke exactly and imagine if drinking tea could make you ill and you'd need medication to deal with this.

And if drinking too much tea was seen as socially unacceptable despite images everywhere saying you should be drinking it all the time.

And that men could force you to drink unwanted tea and it would be your fault if they did.

And if the media portrayed the drinking of tea in most impractical places and out of barely functional cups or mugs. But you were expected to enjoy this.

It would probably matter in terms of how libido (and lack of it) can be medicalised.

But then we're talking libido not sexuality.

Micke has hit on a key point here. How is it possible to tell what the female libido would be like in a society in which we were allowed to express it freely, without men constantly trying to hijack it and redirect it to serve their needs rather than ours? It's like trying to run an experiment with no control group.

Micke
But what if I liked tea with lemon? Should I stop liking it because some woman don't like it?

What if I don't enjoy normal tea but because I'm I woman I should drink it anyway because women dobt like lemon tea?

Then you hit upon the real problem Consent.

if my partner bought me a mug every birthday, and expected me to drink tea a certain number of times a week, and got grumpy if I didn't

This isn't about sexuality its about consent.

and watched videos of other people drinking weak tea with lemon, when I like it with milk

Your uncomfortable with a partner's behaviour its about incompatible and consent.

and he thought I should drink my tea with lemon and kept trying to make it for me that way, then perhaps, I might decide that tea isn't all it's cracked up to be.

And again this is about consent. All the about could be written about any kind of tea if it wasn't the kind you wanted.

As women most of the problems with ate sexuality are actually difficulties is getting our consent taken account or taken seriously.

It's not helped by assuming men and women in their sexuality are inherently different.

How is it possible to tell what the female libido would be like in a society in which we were allowed to express it freely, without men constantly trying to hijack it and redirect it to serve their needs rather than ours?

How does it help if we automatically make assumptions about female libido and how it's shaped when we've only just started exploring it?

Not sure who you're arguing with, Banana, but it can't be me as that was my first comment in this thread.

This isn't about sexuality its about consent.

Not just about consent though.

It's also about how even if I like something, if I hear about it too much, I go off it.

For example, I hate mugs that say tea on them, and will go out of my way to drink coffee from them.

What if you do like tea with lemon? What if all you've ever had was tea with milk though? You might think you don't like tea at all!

This is my problem - it's not just about consent - if I'm constantly being hammered by tea, then when my partner offers me a cup, perhaps I'm just so mentally worn out by the hammering from everyone else, that I can't face tea - not that my partner would force, me, but just that, from day to day life, I've been burned out on the subject of tea, and now I'm put off by it.

Nothing to do with consent, everything to do with being in a bath of messages, and how that's going to affect libido/desire.

What if you do like tea with lemon? What if all you've ever had was tea with milk though? You might think you don't like tea at all!
Actually I see your point here. It's just it works both way round. Regular sex could be either tea with milk or tea with lemon.

If we only ever define our tea as with milk or with lemon we never get to appreciate that some people like like both milk and lemon.

I'm possibly diverting the discussion though

@AngryAttackKittens

Good point

I get really hacked off when we say women don't like this or can't like that just because they are women. I think the idea of sexuality being inherently gendered is utter crap.

There may historically been ways that women have had to behave as a result of biology. I'm not sure it's useful to pass those behaviours onto the next generation as a given

Has anyone mentioned entitlement yet? (other than with reference to incels)

It's that men think they are entitled to make their partner drink tea with lemon/milk. They are entitled to drink as much tea themselves as they want and they will sulk if they don't get it. There is a sense of entitlement around men's sexuality.

Girls aren't encouraged at all to explore their sexuality. The message from a very young age is watch out, males only want one thing, teenage pregnancy is bad and you should save your virginity for someone special.

I read this time and time again on here, but I was a teenager 30 year's ago and while those messages were there, girls were having more sex and younger ages than boys.
And not because boys were pressuring us either, we were chasing the boys!
It seems that many women younger than me (not on FWR) are a lot more free and easy than I ever was, and who can say whether a) men have conditioned women into giving up sex to them, or b) women have become more able to explore their sexuality and actually choose who and how many people they want to sleep with and enjoy it?

But this isn't about men's sexuality - this is about womens' (mine)

Abandoning tea, I think the trouble is that women's sexuality is such public property, that it's really hard for us to figure out what our own sexuality is.

What our sexuality is supposed to be is put on advertising posters, in magazines, then we dose ourselves up with hormones which change our bodies and desires, then we get in the expected relationships, and society has taught us to be accommodating, so our sexuality gets further subsumed into our partner's (assuming hetero relationships) - like gender, how can we really know what a woman's sexuality is?

I wonder if lesbians aren't the closest we'll get - if advertising for the male gaze has less of an effect (it can't have no effect, as we are all women) because you're not interested in attracting men at any point, if your day to day sex life isn't expected to play second fiddle to a male partner's?

Very interesting conversation! I thought this article was fascinating, about the fact that sex is just expected to be painful for somwne at least soem of the time and everyone is meant to be ok with that:theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure

and this one:reneejg.net/2017/02/07/a-call-to-feminists-to-remember-the-history-and-sex-based-nature-of-womens-oppression/

I would echo @kesstrel : why are we taught that the way men (want to) have sex is the superior option? How many TV shows and movies have had a storyline about a woman deciding to have sex "like a man" eg purely for pleasure, devoid of any emotions? As if the "ability" to seperate sex from emotions is this wonderful skill that men have mastered and women are lagging behind.

Sorry those links came out non-clicky, I'll try again

theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure

reneejg.net/2017/02/07/a-call-to-feminists-to-remember-the-history-and-sex-based-nature-of-womens-oppression/