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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girl Guiding email to parents regarding Trans

58 replies

WhiskyIrnBru · 08/10/2018 09:41

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this? I don't feel like it addresses concerns parents have raised?

Important update

A message to all our members, parents and carers

Our response to the media attention to our Equality and Diversity policy

In the last few days you may have seen that Girlguiding’s Equality and Diversity policy has been criticised in the media, with accusations that our inclusion of trans members puts girls at risk. It does not.

The safety, wellbeing and happiness of our members is at the heart of everything we do in Girlguiding and has been for over 100 years.

We are therefore writing to all our members and parents of our young members to set the record straight. Keeping girls, young women and our adult volunteers safe is our number one priority. We’re really proud of our robust safeguarding procedures which apply to everyone and underpin everything volunteers and girls do in guiding. We are deeply saddened that anyone would suggest that we would knowingly put our young members at risk.

As an organisation we pride ourselves on caring for every individual. Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

Every individual and group is different, so we train and support our volunteers to assess every situation - balancing the needs of all our members, both girls and adults, so everyone can enjoy their guiding experience in a way they feel comfortable with. Our universal policies ensure that all volunteers are required to safeguard and assess risk for all activities on a case by case basis to comply with those policies and procedures.

We’ve been responding directly to practical questions from volunteers and parents about how we can balance the needs of all our members, and we are always happy to offer bespoke support to any leader or parent, including on transgender inclusion.

It is important to us that we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

Girlguiding’s policies, procedures and Volunteer Code of Conduct ensure that all our volunteers understand their roles and responsibilities to treat others with respect, keep everyone safe, and deliver great experiences for girls and young women.

We therefore take breaches of our policies, procedures and Volunteer Code of Conduct very seriously.

Following a number of complaints about two individuals, an independent investigation concluded that both had breached our Volunteer Code of Conduct and our Social Media policy because they did not, and indicated that they were not willing to, follow Girlguiding’s Equality and Diversity policy and actively encouraged others to do the same. We are always willing to listen to feedback about our policies, and remain open to reviewing them wherever necessary.

We will always investigate any breaches of our Volunteer Code of Conduct and related policies. While withdrawal of membership is a last resort for us, our policies are designed to protect our girls and young women. Refusing to comply with our policies is unacceptable. Unfortunately, the circumstances meant that we had no choice but to withdraw these individuals’ membership. This decision was not based on their personal views, but on the way they conducted themselves.

We have been asked to provide further details on these specific disciplinary cases but it would be inappropriate to comment further as the individuals in question have a right to appeal.

We’ve tried to avoid being drawn into the highly politicised, emotive and often aggressive debate around transgender inclusion. Girlguiding is not a transgender campaign group, we are a young people’s organisation. Our focus has been, and will remain, providing our young members with opportunities to learn, grow and discover in a fun, safe, inclusive and legally compliant way.

We have developed our policy in line with legal advice and, in the case of our guidance around transgender members, organisations with experience of supporting transgender children and young people. Contrary to claims made on social media we do not make policy based on comments from individuals or pressure groups.

We know that this is a new and complex area of law and we will continue to review our policies against the latest advice and guidance. Under the General Data Protection Regulation 2018 the sharing of personal data of children is afforded greater protection, so we take great care to uphold confidentiality. Any information about an individual’s transgender history is treated in line with the Data Protection Act 2018/General Data Protection Regulation 2018 (GDPR) and Girlguiding’s Data Protection policy.

It hasn’t been easy to hear criticism of our organisation and of the wider Girlguiding family especially when much of it is inaccurate, aggressive and counter to the values we hold dear.

We are incredibly proud of our volunteers and the young people in our movement who sensitively and positively support diversity of all kinds, including our transgender members, as part of their groups. We would like to thank each and every one of our 109,000 volunteers who, week in and week out, offer a safe space for girls and young women to have fun, learn new skills, explore their own identity and beliefs, and to be proud of who they are.

Amidst all the noise we try to remain focused on the children and young people that we support. We call ourselves a movement because we change with the times, whilst staying focused on our core values and purpose, and we will continue to do just that.

Amanda Medler

Chief Guide

Ruth Marvel

Acting chief executive

© Copyright Girlguiding 2018. All Rights Reserved. Registered Company Address: 17-19 Buckingham Palace Road, London SW1W 0PT.

OP posts:
WhiskyIrnBru · 08/10/2018 09:41

Format fail. SorryBlush

OP posts:
failingatlife · 08/10/2018 09:48

My DD isn't a GG but if she was that email would not satisfy me whatsoever. They seem to have just glossed over the issues & concerns that have been raised. They are really digging their heels in. Wonder why?

deepwatersolo · 08/10/2018 09:51

As an organisation we pride ourselves on caring for every individual. Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

They are willfully obtuse, imo. Being MALE clearly does make someone more of a safeguarding risk and the same is even more true for adult males who seek out positions where they have close, ideally unsupervised, access to children.
The trans-fairy does not magically make these risks disappear.

Popchyk · 08/10/2018 09:55

As that email continues, it moves from talking about girls to young people and young members.

It embodies the issue wonderfully well. Girls being erased in order to include boys. In one email.

Presumably they will change their name to Guiding. Or YouthGuiding.

WhiskyIrnBru · 08/10/2018 09:57

You're right Popchyk I hadn't noticed that. They come across as very defensive.

OP posts:
Littlemouseroar · 08/10/2018 10:01

Yet again forgetting that feeling female does not make you female.

deepwatersolo · 08/10/2018 10:04

We’ve been responding directly to practical questions from volunteers and parents about how we can balance the needs of all our members, and we are always happy to offer bespoke support to any leader or parent, including on transgender inclusion.

That support, however, does not extend to telling parents, if their kid's peer or adult group leader is transgender.

Redkeyboard · 08/10/2018 10:06

That email completely avoids the question of why normal sex-based safeguarding practice is being ignored if teenage boys or adult males simply say they are female. And behind parents’ backs.

The question is important for the safety of girls in their care.

A male’s words don’t change the reality of his biological sex. Denying reality is no basis for good safeguarding practice.

This question isn’t going away, guides will have to answer it at some point. The longer they leave it the worse it looks.

Datun · 08/10/2018 10:07

Crikey do these people get lessons in meaningless waffle?

And yes, being trans doesn't increase the risk of predation, but being male does. Male plus trans. Not female plus trans. Something that would have been pointed out to them, explicitly, over and over

Lying. Absolutely bloody lying. Their own survey is incorporated into a government report about how many girls are sexually assaulted in school!

I suspect they are panicking and have asked for further advice from what The Times calls a 'transgender interest group'. Who are now struggling to square the circle that they have forced the girl guides to uphold.

The guides need to exit from what is increasingly looking like an abusive relationship.

ClosdesMouches · 08/10/2018 10:09

We’re really proud of our robust safeguarding procedures which apply to everyone

Hmm
doublethink · 08/10/2018 10:13

They have not made any additional risk assessments about men being leaders. Someone in their safeguarding team told my friend this on the phone last week. My friend pushed them and said that due to transwomen having penises that additional risk assessments were needed, but the safeguarding person said that if they had an issue with the policy they needed to speak to the complaints department.

Jenala · 08/10/2018 10:14

Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

Like many making this argument, the point is being entirelt missed. No one is saying that a trans individual is inherently more of a safeguarding risk than any other individual. What we are saying is that a blanket self ID acceptance policy opens the door to bad faith actors who will be willing to claim to be transgender in order to access spaces they should not - because self ID will make that a pretty easy option.

I'm beginning to think more and more that organisations are being wilfully obtuse, but I can't really think why unless I start down a bit of a conspiracy theory path. Maybe they genuinely think that the issue is simply fear of transgender people? They're not listening if so.

Datun · 08/10/2018 10:16

They also can't take autogynephilia into account.

The fact that a man identifying as a woman could very likely have it, quite publicly, is meaningless to them.

They explicitly said they don't ask about it.

It would've been better to say nothing than send that ridiculous email.

Datun · 08/10/2018 10:20

I'm beginning to think more and more that organisations are being wilfully obtuse

It's the party line. Susie Green and Helen thingy from mermaids will use the one argument, oh my God are you saying children are rapists.

They have no other argument. That's the reason it sounds so silly. Because it's so easily reduted. It's worked, partly up until now. Because people are reluctant to use predatory in the same sentence as children.

But the argument will only last as long as the first person to turn around and say absolutely yes I am using those two words together.

Which one can do, because statistically one can evidence it.

And of course the second reason, which never gets any house room at all, is that girls who have already been subjected to objectification, sexual harassment and in many cases assault, absolutely want a female only space.

Datun · 08/10/2018 10:21

refuted

bigKiteFlying · 08/10/2018 10:22

I'm beginning to think more and more that organisations are being wilfully obtuse

I've thought this for a while now.

happydappy2 · 08/10/2018 10:29

Just because 86% of girls don’t think that anyone should be discriminated against for being transgender, does not mean they think it’s ok to let Male bodied children share accommodation & showers with them. Girl Guides are so in the wrong on this.

PussinWellies · 08/10/2018 10:31

Surely the question is why a transgender child is to be deemed less of a risk than the leader's little boy of 8, or a girl's twin brother, or her friend, or any other nice, trusted boy of a similar age.

tearsdontcare · 08/10/2018 10:31

When I was in Guides, we had a horrible bully in our company for a while. She was an unpleasant person, with some issues, which she liked to take out on smaller people.

I remember her sitting on a younger girl, repeatedly punching her in the breasts. The patrol leader looked on, making ineffectual noises, as the bully was a friend of hers, plus she was afraid of her.

Suppose this bully had been much stronger, and in possession of a penis, as well as a trans halo that meant you couldn't criticise or complain about her?

Girl Guides policy is insane. If you have teenage boys and girls in the same space, you have to have rules, not because all boys are rapists, but because there are physical differences. Physical differences, not gender identities.

SirVixofVixHall · 08/10/2018 10:41

Re the simply being trans doesn’t make an individual more of a risk. As pp has said, not necessarily, but being male does. How is anyone falling for this creepy gaslighting rubbish ? The public at large equate trans with transsexual, a post surgery, same sex attracted person, usually male. That is what everyone in real life assumes when I talk about self id. However, everyone knows that so far children are not having SRS. Nor can they get a GRC. So we are talking, legally and literally, physically and sexually, about BOYS. The way GG have twisted it to include boys as girls is disgraceful.
My mother wouldn’t let me join Guides, I worked out why, but for some reason she didn’t want me to do it. I’ve since wondered if she had some bad experience as a child or teenager in a youth group. I’ve mulled over Guides for the dds, but there is no way now I would let them join.

HawkeyeInConfusion · 08/10/2018 10:43

Is this a new email?

If so, I eagerly await my copy so I can reply with my opinion of it.

Not that they ever replied to my last email.

JackyHolyoake · 08/10/2018 10:55

"Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person."

Girl Guiding, here, is utterly ignoring the necessary personal safeguarding that girls have to learn to assert their own boundaries and to say no to males. GG is removing that essential learning experience from girls. This is grooming girls to learn that they have no right to say no and no right to any personal boundaries from males, regardless of how they choose to present themselves.

IHATEPeppaPig · 08/10/2018 11:00

They haven't actually said anything though - they haven't addressed the concerns on safeguarding?

Threewheeler1 · 08/10/2018 11:05

How do they manage to ignore the stats regarding the dramatic increase of child on child crime?
Today we have another story of a 16 year old boy being arrested for rape and attempted murder of a 10 year old girl.
No reassurance in that GG response whatsoever, just another nose-thumbing in the direction of women and parents who have genuine concerns.

VickyEadie · 08/10/2018 11:19

Surely the question is why a transgender child is to be deemed less of a risk than the leader's little boy of 8, or a girl's twin brother, or her friend, or any other nice, trusted boy of a similar age.

THIS. The 3 male classmates who sexually assaulted my best friend on the way home from school when we were 15 had been known to my friend since primary school - she didn't realise she was at risk from boys she knew.

It's downright negligence to make assumptions about boys, even the ones who now say they are girls.

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