Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girl Guiding email to parents regarding Trans

58 replies

WhiskyIrnBru · 08/10/2018 09:41

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this? I don't feel like it addresses concerns parents have raised?

Important update

A message to all our members, parents and carers

Our response to the media attention to our Equality and Diversity policy

In the last few days you may have seen that Girlguiding’s Equality and Diversity policy has been criticised in the media, with accusations that our inclusion of trans members puts girls at risk. It does not.

The safety, wellbeing and happiness of our members is at the heart of everything we do in Girlguiding and has been for over 100 years.

We are therefore writing to all our members and parents of our young members to set the record straight. Keeping girls, young women and our adult volunteers safe is our number one priority. We’re really proud of our robust safeguarding procedures which apply to everyone and underpin everything volunteers and girls do in guiding. We are deeply saddened that anyone would suggest that we would knowingly put our young members at risk.

As an organisation we pride ourselves on caring for every individual. Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

Every individual and group is different, so we train and support our volunteers to assess every situation - balancing the needs of all our members, both girls and adults, so everyone can enjoy their guiding experience in a way they feel comfortable with. Our universal policies ensure that all volunteers are required to safeguard and assess risk for all activities on a case by case basis to comply with those policies and procedures.

We’ve been responding directly to practical questions from volunteers and parents about how we can balance the needs of all our members, and we are always happy to offer bespoke support to any leader or parent, including on transgender inclusion.

It is important to us that we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

Girlguiding’s policies, procedures and Volunteer Code of Conduct ensure that all our volunteers understand their roles and responsibilities to treat others with respect, keep everyone safe, and deliver great experiences for girls and young women.

We therefore take breaches of our policies, procedures and Volunteer Code of Conduct very seriously.

Following a number of complaints about two individuals, an independent investigation concluded that both had breached our Volunteer Code of Conduct and our Social Media policy because they did not, and indicated that they were not willing to, follow Girlguiding’s Equality and Diversity policy and actively encouraged others to do the same. We are always willing to listen to feedback about our policies, and remain open to reviewing them wherever necessary.

We will always investigate any breaches of our Volunteer Code of Conduct and related policies. While withdrawal of membership is a last resort for us, our policies are designed to protect our girls and young women. Refusing to comply with our policies is unacceptable. Unfortunately, the circumstances meant that we had no choice but to withdraw these individuals’ membership. This decision was not based on their personal views, but on the way they conducted themselves.

We have been asked to provide further details on these specific disciplinary cases but it would be inappropriate to comment further as the individuals in question have a right to appeal.

We’ve tried to avoid being drawn into the highly politicised, emotive and often aggressive debate around transgender inclusion. Girlguiding is not a transgender campaign group, we are a young people’s organisation. Our focus has been, and will remain, providing our young members with opportunities to learn, grow and discover in a fun, safe, inclusive and legally compliant way.

We have developed our policy in line with legal advice and, in the case of our guidance around transgender members, organisations with experience of supporting transgender children and young people. Contrary to claims made on social media we do not make policy based on comments from individuals or pressure groups.

We know that this is a new and complex area of law and we will continue to review our policies against the latest advice and guidance. Under the General Data Protection Regulation 2018 the sharing of personal data of children is afforded greater protection, so we take great care to uphold confidentiality. Any information about an individual’s transgender history is treated in line with the Data Protection Act 2018/General Data Protection Regulation 2018 (GDPR) and Girlguiding’s Data Protection policy.

It hasn’t been easy to hear criticism of our organisation and of the wider Girlguiding family especially when much of it is inaccurate, aggressive and counter to the values we hold dear.

We are incredibly proud of our volunteers and the young people in our movement who sensitively and positively support diversity of all kinds, including our transgender members, as part of their groups. We would like to thank each and every one of our 109,000 volunteers who, week in and week out, offer a safe space for girls and young women to have fun, learn new skills, explore their own identity and beliefs, and to be proud of who they are.

Amidst all the noise we try to remain focused on the children and young people that we support. We call ourselves a movement because we change with the times, whilst staying focused on our core values and purpose, and we will continue to do just that.

Amanda Medler

Chief Guide

Ruth Marvel

Acting chief executive

© Copyright Girlguiding 2018. All Rights Reserved. Registered Company Address: 17-19 Buckingham Palace Road, London SW1W 0PT.

OP posts:
JackyHolyoake · 08/10/2018 11:20

"We have developed our policy in line with legal advice and, in the case of our guidance around transgender members, organisations with experience of supporting transgender children and young people. Contrary to claims made on social media we do not make policy based on comments from individuals or pressure groups."

"We know that this is a new and complex area of law and we will continue to review our policies against the latest advice and guidance."

No, it is not a new and complex area of law. One law has existed for thirteen years and the other has existed for eight years.

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 applies to adult transsexuals only and it clearly acknowledges that humans cannot change sex and that it is creating a Legal Fiction.

The Equality Act 2010 affirms that "gender reassignment" is a protected characteristic. Section 7 of that Act specifies that "gender reassignment" applies to transsexuals only. www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7

The terms "transgender", "transgirl", "transwoman", "transboy" and "transman" have no legal reognition since these terms are not written in any current law and have no legal definition.

The Equality Act also affirms that "sex" is a protected characteristic.
[Note that the word "gender" is never used except in relation to "reassignment", as applied to transsexuals only.]

"Sex" is defined as man or woman by this Act. The Equality Act defines man as: a male of any age; woman: a female of any age. [See: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/212]

So, whoever provided legal advice to Girl Guiding has plainly misunderstood the law. GG needs to rescind this because it has been very poorly advised. Girl Guiding would do very well to familiarise itself with the Exceptions that are written in this Act, specifically to protect the right of girls and women to sex-segregated spaces, services etc. [ See: Schedule 23.3 Communal accommodation www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/23

and www.aroomofourown.org/a-uk-guide-for-non-lawyers-about-protecting-women-only-spaces-june-2016/ ]

DayMay · 08/10/2018 11:26

A 16 year old male has been in the press today, having done just what Green states isn't possible along with attempted murder of a 10 year old female.

Chocolate1984 · 08/10/2018 11:28

My friend is a guide leader and she is worried. Leaders & volunteers can't express their concerns for fear of being thrown out. They can't talk freely in case someone who doesn't agree reports them. They feel they can't risk being thrown out because they can see the safe guarding issues the changes are creating and want to protect the girls.

It's really teaching women and girls they aren't allowed to speak out.

Redkeyboard · 08/10/2018 11:31

My friend is a guide leader and she is worried. Leaders & volunteers can't express their concerns for fear of being thrown out. They can't talk freely in case someone who doesn't agree reports them. They feel they can't risk being thrown out because they can see the safe guarding issues the changes are creating and want to protect the girls.

Girl Guiding what are you doing ? Can you not see yourselves?

scepticalwoman · 08/10/2018 11:52

86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender
And that's what I'd expect. But I'd bet a lot of money that the Guides didn't ask girls if they'd be happy sleeping or showering next to someone with a penis. And I bet they didn't ask girls whether they'd be happy discussing their unexpected period with the transgender women leader on their guide camp.
To quote that statement as an argument about why girls are totally accepting of the guides changing to a mixed sex organisation without consultation is disingenuous in the extreme.

NotBadConsidering · 08/10/2018 11:56

Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

I have a theory.

There are 3 possiblilties that being trans does to a male in terms of their risk to females:

  1. increase the risk
  2. the risk stays the same, or
  3. the risk decreases.

No one, particularly no one here, is saying option one occurs. No one. Most people think it’s option 2. But I think, that the GGs think, that it’s option 3. And I think they think that because certain people at Mermaids, who advise them, tell them that the puberty blockers and cross sex hormones (and even surgery) they should be getting would suppress this risk. Susie Green constantly talks about trans girls as if they’re under treatment, because that’s the way Mermaids want it, and I think they persuade, in their capacity as advisers that this is the case, and thus trans girls, males, can’t possibly be a threat to girls. The reality of what actually happens - boys who wish to identify as girls are not given any treatment because they are sensibly advised by the Tavistock clinic type model - is not conveyed. The possibility that there is deliberate misleading of the facts needs to be considered. This would make the GGs monumentally stupid for not researching properly and forming a policy based on this advice.

There is an alternative theory: that is that despite knowing that boys as trans girls present an equal risk, the GGs are deliberately ignoring that risk and putting girls at risk for the sake of appeasing males, but that would make them monumentally evil.

So either the GGs are monumentally stupid or monumentally evil. Either way, I can’t think of an explanation that makes their actions remotely reasonable. I am really trying to consider their perspective regarding risk assessment and safeguarding but I’ve seen nothing to suggest anything contrary to the two theories above.

Badstyley · 08/10/2018 12:00

Isn’t that the same as the last one? Looks like it to me.

If I had a DD in GG I would not be satisfied with that. The answer to criticism of their safeguarding practices compromising girls’ safety is not just to say, no you’re wrong so shut up. I hope nobody is letting this go.

SwiftNC · 08/10/2018 12:01

Girl guides Scotland are hitting troll level now

https://twitter.com/tempie321/status/1049249300004458496

How the hell can they post this stuff and keep a straight face? It's appalling how dishonest and wilfully misleading this sort of stuff is. We are reading about girls describing the sexual harassment they experience in the press today https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45777787 and still this dishonest and cruel propaganda is being peddled as they welcome boys & men who identify as girls/women without a thought as to how girls feel. Girls experience sexual harassment daily, from a young age, and a claimed girl only organisation disregards their right to privacy and dignity in a space supposed to be away from males.

They should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

deepwatersolo · 08/10/2018 13:03

NotBadConsidering, yeah, they only consider Jazz Jennings type of dysphoric transgirls, and ignore the Lila Perrys and Jane Faes of this world. (Let alone the David Challenors and Jacintas.)

ChattyLion · 08/10/2018 13:31

What a total shower.
No, it’s not discrimination to apply safeguarding, FFS.

What kind of political movement wants to encroach on normal Safeguarding practice? We really have to just keep on asking this?

Why is it such a problem for these lot wheb girls and women just want to keep completely normal safeguarding boundaries in place?

ChattyLion · 08/10/2018 13:31

*when

Mrskeats · 08/10/2018 13:36

That’s just a load of waffle.
What parents want to know is will boys be sharing with girls (esp without parental knowledge or consent)
They won’t address that directly though

WhiskyIrnBru · 08/10/2018 14:05

Again and again, the feelings of a small minority of people trumps the rights of a large majority of women and girls. I find the tone of the email to be quite passive aggressive and effectively shuts down any discussion with complete hyperbole. Put up and shut up. It would be interesting to see the stats on the numbers of trans girls and women now involved in Guiding.

OP posts:
averylongtimeago · 08/10/2018 14:15

I posted this on another thread but it's worth sharing again.
This is part of the REN (residential event notification) form that all leaders have to fill in before they get permission to take girls away.
You have to give lots of details, all the adults have to have up to date DBS, you have to say what you are planning to do, plus you have to provide risk assessments, for everything.
Now look at the form: you have to risk assess males being there. You have to provide separate facilities, if they are children over 8 they can't sleep in the same area, it's very strict.
But not if they are trans women or trans girls. No extra risk assessments allowed.

averylongtimeago · 08/10/2018 14:16

Photo if form

Girl Guiding email to parents regarding Trans
Mumfun · 08/10/2018 14:27

you mean GG dont allow?

newtlover · 08/10/2018 14:38

I think someone who is a GG parent needs to reply to the email with very specific points requesting that they are addressed- eg

as a parent of a guide I would like to know

  1. on what grounds you assume a transidentified boy to be less of a risk to my daughter than any other boy
  2. how you propose to include girls from some faith communities for whom an all female environment is mandatory
  3. etc

I look forward to hearing from you regarding these points

etc

averylongtimeago · 08/10/2018 14:59

Newtlover those questions have been asked, but please ask them again.
Trans girls ARE girls, therefore no extra risk.
And the below is part of a reply about your second question:

Here are their contact details:
www.girlguiding.org.uk/about-us/our-organisation/contact-us/

Girl Guiding email to parents regarding Trans
newtlover · 08/10/2018 15:04

I have no connection to GG, so not my place really

I just think that a dialogue would eventually uncover how shaky the foundations are- if they were to reply saying 'trans girls are girls" I would then be asking them what they thought a girl was

VickyEadie · 08/10/2018 15:08

The other question is 'Why do you believe that boys and men pose a potential risk to girls?', of course.

Because that's the hole through which their position on transgirls drops.

doublethink · 08/10/2018 15:41

Unfortunately many parents have emailed and GG have not answered our questions. It's disgusting.

Redkeyboard · 08/10/2018 16:21

Avery you are right but girl Guiding are stonewalling and so have the NSPCC. Plenty of parents have asked that question and they just ignore it and repeat the statements in the letter the OP posted.

ChrysanthemumsAreMums · 08/10/2018 16:30

newtlover

This article in the Sun today (surprisingly good) has in it a short clip of Susie Green of Mermaids discussing GG, and repeatedly saying 'transgirls are girls'. GG get their advice from Mermaids. GG believe (I can only assume) that transgirls are girls

ChrysanthemumsAreMums · 08/10/2018 16:31

www.thesun.co.uk/news/7440889/must-bow-to-transgender-agenda/amp/

Sorry, forgot to link SUN ARTICLE

FlowerpotFairyHouse · 08/10/2018 16:35

Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

No, but neither does it reduce nor eradicate the risk of placing males amongst females who we separate for very good reasons.

I don't think people should be discriminated against on the basis of being transgender either but I don't think males should be placed in female safe spaces.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.