Fair Play For Women meeting MPs at House of Common on 16th October

[DoctorW]

In fact even better than that, Woman's Place UK and Transgender Trend will be going too.

I (Nicola Williams) will be one of the three women attending in order to answer MP’s questions about how proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act will affect women’s rights.

Womans Place UK and Fair Play For Women have both requested to meet with Penny Mordaunt, Minister for Women and Equalities, to represent the concerns and questions of the thousands of women who support us, but have not been granted a meeting.

So, we are taking the meeting to the House of Commons to give Penny Mordaunt, and all MPs, the opportunity to meet us, ask questions and hear our views. All they need to do is drop in and meet us. This is the opportunity for MPs to hear the voices of women concerned by these changes and to increase their knowledge about this subject in a calm, confidential environment.

Every MP has received a formal invitation for this meeting but we need YOU to make sure they come. Please email your constituency MP telling them that you support us and ask them to confirm to you that they will attend this meeting.

You can find your MPs details here www.writetothem.com/
Email them this weekend before their diaries get filled. The meeting is just 10 days from now.

Meeting: How will changes to the Gender Recognition Act affect women’s rights? Tuesday 16th October 2018 at 10:30am until 12:30pm in Room S, House of Commons

We are happy to engage with reasonable concerns but the answer should never be to automatically exclude trans people...

...you feckin' bigots

The obligatory sting in the tail just in case it might seem like your concerns were being taken seriously.

I'm not articulate enough to be able to pinpoint what's being done in that sentence, there's an implication that women are hysterical and demanding and if only they would be nice and reasonable they'd be talked to like proper adults. Be like Adrian, in fact.

It's a straw man. What's being asked for is dialogue, and this guy is implying that asking for dialogue is seeking automatic exclusion of trans people.

for anyone writing to MPs, the transcript of the speech made by Prof Kathleen Stock yesterday at House of Lords meeting is really worth including:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3391330-Prof-Kathleen-Stock-WPUK-speech-at-House-of-Lords-Important-disection-of-the-key-issues-for-MPs-policy-makers-etc-with-ref-to-The-Trans-Equality-Report

Jesus, this is no good for my blood pressure, which has been excellent up to now. The more I read that sentence the more I get the rage. Does he think he's talking to children? "We are happy to engage with reasonable concerns..." He's the office manager, not an MP.

Exactly ... I need to articulate why that sentence pisses me off so much in polite parlance!

It's exceptionally condescending, downright paternal in tone, implies that he (and the body for which he apparently speaks) are the sole judge of what is reasonable for women to mind about and what is just them being silly, and attempts to personally frame and limit the right of women to protest or be heard based on his superior wisdom.

Not sure who he thinks he is, but could be easily spotted trying to squeeze his ego in through doorways.

oooh, brilliantly put Knicknackpaddyflak

The royal We.

We as the Labour Party continue to recognise the importance of women-only spaces. We would seek to ensure that the government implement comprehensive policies and guidance to ensure the safety of women in female only spaces. We are happy to engage with reasonable concerns but the answer should never be to automatically exclude trans people.

But Labour believe with all their misogynistic hearts that TWAW so this is meaningless and changes nothing.

Mine still hasn't replied. I clicked the "Write to them"
link in my email again...just in case it didn't send.

Hello all. New poster (and non-Mum but joining because of OMFG).
So, my issue is this. I am in a marginal and my MP is Philip Davies, the most misogynistic MP there is. The Labour candidate is lovely but obviously not in a position to attend the meeting. Is it worth emailing Philip Davies or will he just derail the event and use it for his own agenda? Most of us in Shipley stopped emailing him about anything to do with women long ago so I would have to hold my nose but I will do it if everyone agrees it is useful.

It would be good if all MPs should be encouraged to go and I think if Philip Davies is still squatting sitting on the Women's & Equalities Commitee it might be worth sending him a copy of Kathleen Stock's recent speech.

There's a number of very serious issues with the Trans Equality Report which she identifies.

Philip Davies might do well to consider them as the issues wil be with the whole committee, though Maria Miller was the lead.

You can always raise it as an issue of free speech and parliamentary process (which it is) and then he will have to find out more from those pesky feminists.
thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3391330-Prof-Kathleen-Stock-WPUK-speech-at-House-of-Lords-Important-disection-of-the-key-issues-for-MPs-policy-makers-etc-with-ref-to-The-Trans-Equality-Report

Mistakenly posted on another MP thread first.

I found ringing the constituency office and speaking to someone useful. I'm hoping my reminder about the meeting will be put in front of him, and if he can't go then a researcher will put in an appearance.

Also have booked to meet MP again to discuss events of the last few months (saw MP before the consultation was opened). Think I will send him Kathleen Stock's speech from HOL WPUK meeting - it's lucid and succinct.

Thanks. The free speech angle is a good idea. I do think he will be open to that.

Hi @booze2

Philip Davies MP definitely needs to be alerted to the meeting. He works tirelessly for Men's Rights but, unfortunately for him, half of his voters are women. So he has to listen to them. If he doesn't get at least one letter, then he'll be getting off lightly.

I wouldn't put too much time or energy into your letter. Just draw the meeting to his attention and ask him to go, or send a researcher, because its important to you and your family.

One thing that he hates is "political correctness" - so you will be pushing on open doors if you say something along the lines of:

"I am worried about the absurdities that self identification will bring to everyday life and encounters - for example, where we have to watch our language in case we are reported to the police for a transphobic hate incident by 'deadnaming' or 'misgendering' a transgender person.

That sort of thing. I haven't worded it properly, but can you see what I mean?

He hate, hate, hates the misuse of police resources for (what he sees as) political correctness, so it might work.

Honestly, it won't be wasted. Every single letter counts because the depth and extent of feelings towards the GRA can't then be denied.

Thanks! I'm glad I asked. So many of us have given up writing to him which is probably a cop out. I will write tomorrow and say something along those lines. I found myself liking a Julie Hartley Brewer tweet today. These are strange times.

Booze JHB has done some brilliant interviews. She takes no prisoner's.
Strange times indeed

Here's J H-B with Justine Roberts and India Willoughby.
(this followed MN announcement that they were being pressured by TRAs to prevent / censor discussion here on FWR but that they would support free and civil debate)

She is much less objectionable on radio than on TV actually.

I've just had this email response from Caroline Lucas MP about next week's meeting in House of Commons.

Any suggestions for reply? Pushed for time this week but do want a dialogue with her. Ideas helpful.

Sad that local groups like Rise and Brighton Williams women's centre are going down the trans people as women route and therefore don't want a dialogue with Caroline as a result.

Cynically wondering if this lack of discussion with these local charities is because they can access more funding strands if they include trans in the women services?

Email below -

Dear xxx,

Thank you for writing to me about the GRA information session being held in Parliament next week. Unfortunately I cannot attend as it directly clashes with a meeting of the parliamentary committee on which I sit, but I wanted to let you know that I have met already for nearly 2 hours with some of the key women’s groups expressing concerns about the possibility of a self-identification process being introduced for a Gender Recognition Certificate.

I met with representatives of Woman’s Place UK and Fair Play for Women and the topics covered included the potential impact of self-identification on the current provisions in the Equalities Act 2010, and specifically on safe spaces; trans people in prison; the effects of blocking software being employed on social media; hate crime; whether parents have the right to know if their child is eg on an overnight trip with a trans child; and sex education. We discussed protecting and maintaining sex based exemptions in the Equality Act and agreed this was an important shared principle. You may be interested to know that I am committed in a personal capacity to the principle of retaining other exemptions too. We also confirmed our shared support for the right to freedom of speech, and the need for dialogue that is evidence based, respectful, constructive and nonviolent.

It was useful to learn more about the serious concerns some women are expressing about things like access to safe spaces. I’ve met with a number of constituents like yourself who have similar concerns and I understand why this is especially important to you as a survivor of domestic violence, especially given the role of gas lighting and doxing. I have contacted local refuges and women’s services to hear their perspective too – so far they have assured me that they are not anticipating any problems and have stressed that they want to support trans women. If an individual poses a threat they feel they have the legal backing to exclude them from safe spaces and to date I have not heard from these services that the proposed changes to the GRA will affect things. However, I know it’s important to keep this under review and make decisions based on the evidence, so I will continue to be in touch with and listen to both users and providers. I will also continue to talk to and consult with trans people, some of whom are opposed to self ID and some of who are supportive, and to women, who likewise have a range of views. As a proud feminist and long term campaigner on ending violence against women and girls, women’s safety is of the utmost importance to me.

We still have far to go in the campaign for true equality and an end to the patriarchy. I believe that standing up for trans rights is a fundamental part of that campaign, and that we have more to gain by working together to challenge the prejudice, discrimination and exclusion all women and all trans people continue to face. For me this is about solidarity and standing with people who have both been previously denied a voice and who have routinely suffered severe discrimination. We know, for example, that women are far more likely to experience sexual violence, objectification or financial exclusion than men. We know too that trans people are far more likely to experience hate crime or be subject to sexual abuse than to be the perpetrator – despite the impression that some high profile cases given thanks to extensive media coverage. What feels crucial is that we don’t allow these cases to dictate policy and that we check whether the systems and processes we have in place are robust, are being properly followed, and any changes are proportionate.

I understand that some women are frightened and worried – and that women’s only spaces really matter. That’s why I support retaining the exemptions in the Equality Act which allow for sex based discrimination if the circumstances demand it. I remain of the view that it is both necessary and possible to promote and protect improved trans people’s rights, whilst at the same time defending and advancing hard won women’s rights. We are living through a time of great cultural change when it comes to gender and nobody has all the answers yet. However, I continue to believe that sitting down and engaging with different perspectives is essential if things are to move on from what is currently a toxic, divisive and unhelpful conversation. I will continue to call out both misogyny and transphobia when I see it and condemn the use of labels, insults and so forth, especially when used to try to shut down free speech. It both saddens and worries me that so many people feel they cannot have a discussion about the GRA openly or publicly and I want to do more to challenge that.

I am looking for solutions that protect both women and trans people’s rights and that’s proving difficult given the strong feelings this subject evokes. Nonetheless, I am determined to continue to listen to a range of voices, to look carefully at the evidence and try to ensure that policy responses to extreme cases are proportionate and fair.

Your balanced, fair and rights based approach is very welcome and I trust we can continue to have a healthy dialogue on this and related issues.

Best wishes, Caroline

Caroline Lucas, MP for Brighton Pavilion
House of Commons
London SW1A

It matters who CL speaks to at Women's Refuges & services.

FP4W and WPUK have statments from frontline workers.

See Karen Ingala Smith's recent speech on WPUK site
Also Jean Hatchet's at LAWS & more recently Standing for Women Mcr. (This includes powerful testimony from a woman who has needed Refuge and describes the impact on her of being in spaces with males.)

Thanks. I'll follow these up.

Info from Twitter comment:

Government consultations are required to target groups who will be directly affected.
This means the actual women in refuges, female estate and homeless projects etc.
Not good practise for such charities and organisations to speak on behalf of their service users ever

It seems there should have been demonstrable efforts to ensure that these women were not only informed but provided with information and access to both paper and electronic methods to respond.

James Kirkup article makes clear the issues and responsibilities of MPs:

concludes:
"One of the feminist groups that raised such concerns is Fair Play for Women. These are the people who really sounded the alarm about transgender offenders in the women’s prison estate, with a report last autumn that was later borne out in official figures released by the MoJ. As the group’s warnings over prisons are being so horribly vindicated by the Karen White case, I hope that people in authority will pay more attention to FPFW’s most recent work, which is about domestic violence refuges and shelters.

That report makes two points that deserve much more attention in political conversation about gender, law and domestic violence. The first is that a lot of women who run and use shelters feel they can’t talk freely about this issue, for the familiar reasons that they will be accused of transphobia, lose their jobs and lose funding for the services they provide for vulnerable women.

The second, and more fundamental, point is that the people who run shelters and refuges believe that laws proposed to make life easier for transgender people will also have the effect of making it easier for abusive men to abuse women.

The report, based on the accounts of domestic violence workers and volunteers, makes abundantly clear the fact that the sort of men who wish to hurt, rape and kill women will take every opportunity to do. One shelter manager with 37 years’ experience told FPFW researchers:

“With self-ID policies we will effectively be giving the keys to women’s refuges to abusive men. If that happens, beyond a shadow of a doubt, women will die. Never ever underestimate the potential for abusive men to track down, find and torture their victim.”

Perhaps you think that’s hyperbolic or excessively dramatic. If so, consider again the case of Karen White.

In 2016, the Prison Service put in place a policy that was intended to make life easier for transwomen in custody. That policy meant Karen White, a rapist and child abuser, was able to gain access to vulnerable women and sexually assault them. In the words of the prosecution in White’s latest trial, White is a “predator” who sought to “use a transgender persona to put herself in contact with vulnerable persons she can then abuse.”

Those words were spoken in a trial that ended in Karen White being given a life sentence and the judge telling White: “You are a predator and highly manipulative and in my view you are a danger.”

The Karen White case came about even after MPs had been given clear warnings by several experts that dangerous and manipulative predators like Karen White would try to exploit gender laws and rules in order to abuse women. They failed to act on those warnings and properly scrutinise the rules involved in the Karen White case.

Now, that Fair Play for Women report about domestic violence shelters gives MPs and other people in power another chance to do better. They have been given a clear warning by the professionals who spend their every waking moment dealing with the harm done by abusive men and trying to protect women from abusive men, that such men will try to exploit laws on gender change to find, abuse and kill women.

What will it take to persuade them to listen to that warning this time?"
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/the-cautionary-tale-of-karen-white-the-transgender-rapist/

Not good practise for such charities and organisations to speak on behalf of their service users ever

Particularly when the charities and organisations have had their hands tied by their funding streams and what they must do and demonstrate belief/action in to keep their funding.

In the case of refuges this has been to actively act against the best interests of their service users.

One of the many (many) shameful things about this consultation and Ms Mordant's management of it.

Hullabaloo. Thanks for posting that letter from Caroline Lucas.

Please, please send her the link to the FPFW report on refuges and self-ID. It has experienced professionals talking about their concerns about this and the fact they cannot even discuss using the exemptions for fear of losing their jobs.

fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/FPFW_report_19SEPT2018.pdf