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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

National Autistic Society and Mermaids [Title edited by MNHQ]

875 replies

GColdtimer · 04/10/2018 12:56

My friend just posted this on Facebook this morning. She isn't on MN so I have her permission to share. She would really like more people, especially people with ASD or who have children with ASD, to write to NAS thanking them for their willingness to listen and their agreement that Mermaids is not reputable.

This is really great news so please can we keep this bumped and shared. Thank you.

If posters on the SEN board would like to share that would also be great (if appropriate).

Dear XXXX ,

Thank you for your feedback regarding the Gender and autism page on our website.

I’m writing to let you know that I’ve raised your concerns regarding Mermaids UK, one of the organisations we link to on our Gender and autism page, with a number of teams within the National Autistic Society. In light of the concerns raised in your message, and of other feedback that we have received, we have decided to remove all links to Mermaids UK from our website, while we take the time to consult with relevant professionals and to reconsider which organisations we wish to place links to on our website.

As such, our Web Team are working to remove all links to Mermaids UK from our website as soon as possible. Please do be aware, however, that, as we are currently in the process of updating our website to reflect our new branding and organisational identity, it may take a few days for this to be actioned.

Thank you again for bringing this to our attention, and I hope that you are satisfied with the actions we are taking in light of the concerns that you have raised.

Kind regards,

National Autistic Society

[Edited by MNHQ to remove personal info]

OP posts:
Yrevas · 04/10/2018 18:53

Oh - I get it. Some of the people responding on here seem quite transphobic though. Doesn’t seem to b about protecting our autistic children - more about shutting down transgender support. I’ve got nothing to do with it - I’m just saying it doesn’t look good. I want to protect my daughter from anything - but being negative about trans people seems weird. I’m just saying if there’s a reason for me to b concerned then I want to know more. But if this is just more or the hate thing going on - it doesn’t seem right. I would hate it if someone picked on my autistic daughter. If she was trans - I think as a parent I’d b worried if she was being treated like a freak at school etc. I don’t know. This is a big topic. X

vicviking · 04/10/2018 18:55

Yrevas

I will try and answer this but I am not an expert.

That would mean that not being comfortable performing stereotypically male or female behaviours would make someone trans. Most of us don't constantly perform them either and we are not trans. However we recognise the existence of stereotypically male and female behaviours and sometimes bow to social pressure to perform them (and maybe even enjoy them at times) as it makes social interaction easier if we behave in these expected ways.

For the autistic people I know they like what they like. The idea of performing gendered behaviours just to fit in makes them uncomfortable.

Where the genderists over reach is when they label the refusal to perform gendered behaviours as trans. When it is probably just a lack of following social rules and being driven by their own interests. Plus sometimes sensory issues may be behind a desire for non fussy comfortable clothing.

LikeDustWeRise · 04/10/2018 19:10

Why not go to the Tavistock or Transgender Trend for support and advice? Why go to a lobbying group that promotes the use of Lupron to suppress puberty along with cross-sex hormones and even mutilating, sterilising surgery, for kids under 16?

Let kids with autism get to adulthood with healthy, in tact bodies so that they may enjoy sex and parenthood like other adults. Don't let them anywhere near Mermaids.

Mumfun · 04/10/2018 19:10

Yrevas the folk on here are not transphobic. They are reacting to horrible behaviour by a small cohort of extreme trans activists who have called anyone transphobic who doesnt toe their extreme line. They want to remove women as a distinct group and have oppressed lesbians for being attracted to women and not transwomen with penises. There are lots of trans folk who have more moderate views, respect womens rights and want to work with women to improve the situation for both women and transpeople. Women have no issue with them from my point of view

pennydrew · 04/10/2018 19:17

Yrevas Your comment is very frustrating and completely ignores what is actually being discussed here- a very specific trans lobby group being used by an official organisation that works with children. Nobody here has said anything about not offering support or advice on the subject. The focus here has been on Mermaids. It is completely unfair of you to claim otherwise.

YeTalkShiteHen · 04/10/2018 19:18

For the autistic people I know they like what they like. The idea of performing gendered behaviours just to fit in makes them uncomfortable

I’m autistic and fully agree.

Also, it’s not transphobic to protest against men using trans rights legislation to access children who are vulnerable due to neurodiversity and trying to manipulate them.

Trans rights have been taken over by a very noisy minority, who scream transphobia when challenged.

Before you label the women on here, by listening to those activists, do your research. Look into their methods they use, what their agenda is (hint, it isn’t that they want to transition) and why they’re targeting mainly young teenage, often lesbian ND girls.

I’m sick to the back teeth of being labelled transphobic, when I’m not. I am, however, a mother that would stop at fucking nothing if these abhorrent fuckers went anywhere near my daughter.

Using someone’s ND to target them is about the sickest fucking thing I’ve ever heard, and when I was a kid, I’d have done anything to belong, to fit in. That’s what they’re pushing on these kids, and it’s cruel beyond belief.

But if you’re happy to label people without having the faintest idea what you’re talking about, I’m afraid you’re part of the problem.

Let me lay it out very carefully, my autistic children are not nor will they ever be targeted by this mob. Because I will stop them, by whatever means necessary.

pennydrew · 04/10/2018 19:21

@YeTalkShiteHen fuck you’re awesome 😎

LangCleg · 04/10/2018 19:25

YeTalkShiteHen fuck you’re awesome

Seconded.

placemats · 04/10/2018 19:27

Thirded.

YeTalkShiteHen · 04/10/2018 19:28

Thank you Smile I was expecting a flaming tbh, I’m not usually good at explaining what I mean.

The thought of kids who don’t fit in being targeted by predators makes me angrier than I can coherently put into words.

We owe it to these children to protect them.

LikeDustWeRise · 04/10/2018 19:28

This reply has been deleted

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FactsAreNotMean · 04/10/2018 19:29

Thirded, I drove past one of the new scottish government Transphobia posters earlier and thought "that would be fucking grand if transphobia hadn't become a catch all term for "anything remotely in disagreement with me"

YeTalkShiteHen · 04/10/2018 19:34

FactsAreNotMean I’m working on it, I’ve writteb to Nicola Sturgeon and Mhairi Black about it, I’m hoping to get them to understand the difference between trans people (would fully get behind a 3rd space and want them to have rights and be protected) and a dangerous minority of activists who are in no way trans but using loopholes to access victims.

Still awaiting a response, but it’s only been a day or so.

pennydrew · 04/10/2018 19:35

I am so glad my autistic teen is GC thank fuck.

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2018 19:37

Shall we talk about homophobia? Or is transphobia the only trendy phobia going on in politics at the moment?

Just to reiterate the point about a judge telling Mermaids to stay the fuck away from a child because they weren't interested in what was best for that child. They were only interested in their own ideological agenda.

That's being anti children's rights and interests.

But hey transphobia!

Yrevas · 04/10/2018 19:40

Penny drew - I don’t mean to b frustrating. The comments just felt negative toward trans people. Just my opinion. If I’m wrong then I apologise. Like autism - there r kids struggling with being transgender. I suppose the question is - how do u support all children without dismissing some? Thank god i don’t have to figure it out.

YeTalkShiteHen · 04/10/2018 19:43

I suppose the question is - how do u support all children without dismissing some?

It’s very simple. You prevent predators using loopholes to access vulnerable children, and you offer the support needed to those vulnerable children to protect them from these predators and help them to reach their potential.

That applies to trans children and autistic children by the way. You don’t need to dismiss either of them to close loopholes which mean safeguarding is overridden by misogynistic paedophiles (to be clear I am NOT calling trans people paedophiles I am talking about the paedophiles using legislation to target victims).

Ekphrasis · 04/10/2018 19:47

YeTalkShiteHen you don't talk shite!

To the other poster querying transphobia,It's all very simple.

People with autism often don't conform to gender stereotypes. (I can explain why if needed.)

'Trans' has become a huuuuge thing thanks to trans activists, YouTube, Twitter and social media and an increasingly rigidly gender stereotypical popular culture.

Non conforming people with autism are especially vulnerable to this hype and vulnerable to the TRAs.

The TRAs are advocating these young people MUST and NEED to harm their bodies in order to fit the gender stereotype.

Ekphrasis · 04/10/2018 20:00

Yrevas- it's what you call 'trans'.

Very, very, VERY few youngsters are genuinely unhappy with their bodies / have body dysmorphia.

In reality they just like to play with toys that society says are for the opposite sex. Wear colours that society says are for the opposite sex. Gender is constructed. It's absolutely everywhere for kids when you look at it. Autism creates a further difficulty as a child with autism doesn't always pick up on social cues, what society wants from them. They like what they like. It gets confusing as they get older as they seem different to other members of their sex.

TRAs try to tell them they were born in the wrong body when actually they're just not conforming to stereotypical expectations.

There's no pink or blue brain. We can all be non binary.

Children who get into this trans cult thing can end up taking hormone blockers, breast binding and doing great lasting damage to their body that's hard to undo. Most later realise they were actually gay.

FactsAreNotMean · 04/10/2018 20:01

Actually on that note, I'll have a go at addressing Yrevas "quite transphobic" too.

Aspie, so prone to occasional bluntness disclaimer!!

In many ways I'm the exact opposite of transphobic; I HATE gender stereotypes and the way both women and men are pushed towards certain behaviours, styles, attitudes, behaviours, careers etc on the basis of their sex. I work in a traditionally male dominated industry whilst running a side business in a traditionally female one; I see how damaging and limiting gender roles are. So if someone wants to step outside them I genuinely couldn't give a rats ass. Guy who wants to dress in a stereotypically feminine fashion? Rock on mate, I'll happily chat makeup with you. I think gender rules should be broken as fast as possible.

BUT

I don't believe that conformity with gender stereotypes or roles defines man and woman. I believe they are biological terms. We sometimes segregate on the basis of them, and we need to be able to define them clearly. How can you identify an issue which impacts woman (such as gendered violence, discrimination in the workplace, etc) if you can't clearly define what a woman is? And vice versa for men.

Historically (and I'm not even talking very long ago), the only trans people who most of us were really aware of were your stereotypical old school "transsexual" - people who ardently believed that they had been born in the wrong body, who were largely seeking surgery to allow them to fit in with who they believed themselves to be, and who were by and large a fairly sympathetic group who just wanted to live in peace. I think most people (and certainly most women) treated (and continue to treat) this group with sympathy and kindness

That is no longer what the term "trans" means though, it has become far wider than that. To avoid any accusations of bias, here is what Stonewall describe as trans:
"An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, two-spirit, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois."

That's a pretty damned big umbrella, and only a tiny proportion are what many people think of when they think of a trans person.

The current trans lobby are pushing for everyone in these groups to be able to be recognised as the gender/sex they identify with, on a basis of self identification only. They want self identification to afford access to sex segregated spaces - so a part time cross dresser would, under their approach, be able to use female changing rooms, refuges, prisons and so on.

That's dangerous to women in particular if all any man has to say is "I identify as a woman".

But looping back to the Mermaids issue - they are one of the many organisations (but perhaps one of the most dangerous) who are strongly pushing an agenda where someone who fails to conform to the stereotypes attached to their birth sex should be considered trans. They advocate taking the word of young children who say they like stuff associated with the opposite gender, treating it as gospel, and setting them off on a path towards hormones and major surgery - and doing so unquestioningly and as quickly as possible. They use utterly debunked suicide stats to frighten parents in to transing their children when statistical evidence shows that, left alone, the majority of children will desist as they mature and go through puberty.

I'm not OK with that.

As has been discussed upthread, children who are autistic (possibly undiagnosed in many cases) can be particularly vulnerable to this as they often don't comply with gender stereotypes - in the same way as they often don't comply with many social rules.

I'm not ok with that either.

The push to say that someone who doesn't fit in their gender box actually belongs in a different box - rather than saying that the box is bollocks - damages women who have been fighting to break free from damaging gender roles for centuries.

Nope, not ok by me.

Do I hate trans people? No.
Do I believe people should have equal human rights regardless of their identity? Of course - healthcare, housing, etc etc etc.
Do I feel sympathy for people experiencing dysphoria that makes them so unhappy they want to permanently change their bodies? Absolutely.
Do I fear the current trans agenda, the way it's being pushed on us, and the impact on women and children
Yes, I very much do.

But in the current climate, having concerns apparently makes me transphobic, or a bigot, or a terf.

LangCleg · 04/10/2018 20:04

I suppose the question is - how do u support all children without dismissing some?

Well, you start by not dissolving safeguarding frameworks that make vulnerable children at increased risk of infiltrating abusers.

So you get immediately rid of trans lobby guidance because that is exactly what it does.

FactsAreNotMean · 04/10/2018 20:04

Good luck YeTalkShiteHen; sadly the SNP seem to have IV drips of the Kool-Aid as far as I can tell. I suppose it aligns with their progressive, modern Scotland "vision" but they really need to think more critically

Has anyone seen a Misogyny or Sexism version of those posters btw? No? Tumbleweed....

kooshbin · 04/10/2018 20:05

I think I have autism, I certainly seem to fit most of the criteria. No point in getting a diagnosis, though, as I'm now too old for that to make a difference.

What's hit me quite hard, reading this thread, is that I'm being required to tell a lie. It is a lie that transgirls are girls. It is a lie that transwomen are women. No matter that I wish transwomen to live a quiet life and not be harrassed, it is still a lie.

Imagine being a NT child and being told to tell a lie. Imagine being an autistic child and being told to tell a lie.

I was angry before. Now I'm furious. Children with autism, or just children who don't fit the stereotype, are being seriously disadvantaged by lobby groups like Mermaid, and I strongly support the NAS in their decision to take a very hard look at Mermaids.

megletthesecond · 04/10/2018 20:06

That is a huge relief.

YeTalkShiteHen · 04/10/2018 20:08

FactsAreNotMean I fear you’re right. I’ll keep trying though. I’ve got a meeting with my local MP next week, so I’m hoping that a face to face meeting will be helpful.

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