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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

LGBT Labour 'Myth Busting' Trans rights re self-id GRA

71 replies

R0wantrees · 02/10/2018 19:33

twitter.com/LGBTLabour/status/1046805475772289024

This was the leaflet given out at the Labour Conference.

LGBT Labour 'Myth Busting' Trans rights re self-id GRA
LGBT Labour 'Myth Busting' Trans rights re self-id GRA
OP posts:
Ooforfoxsakeridesagain · 02/10/2018 19:59

I can’t get past the first paragraph of this wankery.

ShowOfHands · 02/10/2018 20:00

That video just made me snort laugh.

FUCK OFF.

IdahoCrow · 02/10/2018 20:05

Ffs

Fuck off Labour with this dangerous drivel

Persifleur · 02/10/2018 20:08

I'm on my phone so can't link to the academic put-down of TRA's misconception of 'smashing the gender binary'. Someone posted it yesterday: it was excellent. You'll find it from the thread title. Take-away is that according to this TRA ideology women (as a category) don't exist and the Greens' 'Not-men' just about sums up our status. FTS!!
Angry Angry

JellySlice · 02/10/2018 20:13

There there, don't worry, it's all fine. Off you go now.

WomaninBoots · 02/10/2018 20:28

What a load of twaddle.

I could probably come up with something more reasoned and in depth... But why bother when they haven't?

VickyEadie · 02/10/2018 20:31

I do love it when men, especially gay and trans ones, tell me to shut up and stop worrying about things that terrify me.

MindTheMinotaur · 02/10/2018 21:04

They haven't really engaged with the issues, have they. Perhaps if they attended a woman's meeting, rather than just banning them, they might have understood and made a worthwhile contribution.

heresyandwitchcraft · 02/10/2018 21:08

There are many myths being spread by trans activists, often couched in very complicated language that changes all the time, and makes ordinary people confused.

For anyone who is wondering, you cannot actually change your biological sex (in other words, if you were born in the body of a woman you won't be able to change into a body into exactly that of a man, or vice versa).

Here are the definitions you need to know:

Trans person - anyone who says they are trans, including cross-dressers, and people who live as a man or woman part-time (known as gender-fluid). Please check the Stonewall umbrella for the longer list, which includes identities like people who say they are neither a man or a woman (even though they were born in bodies that are clearly that of a man or woman).

Trans woman - anyone who was born a man (with the biological make-up that makes them MALE) who says they are a woman. This person may or may not take hormones, they might not have any diagnosis from a professional, they might not even have any discomfort with their physical bodies whatsoever. Most trans women have a penis, and many have no intention of having it operated on. Some trans women still have full beards. Some trans women look exactly like men. It could be a person born a man who truly believes they ARE a woman, or it might be someone who is doing it for other reasons. But we can't tell, because the statement "I am a woman" is the only thing that matters now when it comes to self-ID. The idea that everyone has to put in a lot of effort is simply not true.

Self-ID - Trans activists are lobbying the government to turn changing LEGAL gender into a process as simple as an online form. That means the government has to pretend as though anyone who fills out a declaration was born as something something other than their actual biological body. There will be no checks or balances on this system.

Woman - adult human female. Females are born with the biological make-up that make them women.

Removing any checks and balances, means that ANY MAN WHO SAYS THEY ARE A WOMAN can legally declare themselves a woman and demand access to women's facilities, if the reformation of the gender-recognition act goes through.

If it isn't obvious to you, that would mean the end of: women's changing rooms, women's sports, women's prisons, women's refuges, women's associations, etc. Because these would now not be for women-only. They would be for women and any man who says he is a woman i.e. trans women. There is no gate-keeping.

Many trans people who have medically changed their bodies oppose these changes, because it opens their identities up to be hijacked by actually dangerous people like Ian Huntley (who says he is a woman now).

This is why there is a conflict.

Trans women are not "just men who want to invade women's spaces." But every trans women is an all adult human male. Trans women were all born men. Otherwise they wouldn't be trans. THEREFORE they are not a "type of" adult human female (i.e. woman), they are actually a type of adult human biological male. That makes a difference for political representation, because women's issues like reproductive healthcare (abortion, gyneacological cancer, pregnancy), will never affect trans women personally. Plus many trans women lead lives completely the same as any man for many many years, and then later transition. Such as Caitlyn Jenner. Is it fair to say that Caitlyn knows what it's like to live as a woman athlete, given that when she was known as Bruce she won the Men's Olympic Decathlon? Women don't even have a decathlon at the Olympic level!

If you think every man should have the legal right to say they are are a women and demand access to all women's spaces without any sort of common sense/boundary, then by all means support self-ID.

However, if you think that actually in some places there are very good reasons to separate men and women, then you must oppose self-ID. There are no common-sense limits to this policy. We have seen high-profile cases in the media of a clear abuse of the existing systems by rapists and paedophiles. The British Psychological Society and others have WARNED about this, because changing gender not only makes offenders seem potentially less threatening, but they also get to take on a new identity. The GRA makes it more difficult to link a previous criminal history and with a current identity.

It's not about "trans women". Just like it's never about all men being dangerous. But males/men, as a group, commit most of the violent crime and the overwhelming majority of sexual offenses. This is about whether we want to keep single-sex spaces for women. They are there to protect women, and give them privacy, dignity and comfort.

In my view, we need to look at this carefully and support third-space solution where appropriate (especially for prisons). We need trans people to be safe and to flourish without discrimination. Trans people have every right to believe what they wish and live accordingly. So do women. So does anyone who defines their terms by biological reality.

This is a competing rights issue, and one that needs to be discussed carefully.

Women are an equal stakeholder in this question.

We have every reason to believe that self-ID presents a huge problem. Safeguarding principles, common sense, forensic experts, and most-importantly WOMEN are saying THIS IS A TERRIBLE IDEA. We know that people who protest this potential change to the law are getting terrible abuse from the trans lobby. We know it is already very difficult to keep women's spaces women-only. We know some trans activists already say that the dictionary definition of woman is considered "transphobic" hate speech.

Reforming the GRA to a simple matter of self-declaration will make this situation worse.

Let's start talking some common sense, look carefully at the facts, embrace freedom of thought, speak honestly about basic biology, and defend women's rights.

Please say NO to self-ID.

HawkeyeInConfusion · 02/10/2018 21:29

Their 41% experiencing hate crime stat - do they define what a hate crime is? Does it include accidental misgendering?

And how will they know if things get better or worse for the trans community if self-id comes in and all the crimes against trans women just get recorded as against women? Are they too dense to realise that doing away with trans means that they can't monitor for an increase in actual transphobia? And that their demands are putting their own community at risk.

Or don't they care as long as women are destroyed?

Fallingirl · 02/10/2018 21:58

Here’s the link about the complete misconceptions by TRAs thinking they are smashing ‘the gender binary’.

janeclarejones.com/2018/10/01/a-note-on-smashing-the-binary/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Rubidium · 02/10/2018 22:04

Their 41% experiencing hate crime stat - do they define what a hate crime is?

Welcome to the wonderful world of womanhood, lads. Which woman alive hasn't at least been cat-called, groped or (much) worse? Aren't they hate crimes?

OldCrone · 02/10/2018 22:20

Someone on that LGBT Labour twitter thread says 'nobody is removing sex as a protected characteristic', and the GRA has nothing to do with the Equality Act.

Making legal sex a matter of personal choice means that the category of sex is meaningless, so of course it is removed as a protected characteristic.

How will the EA protect women and girls (the female-born kind), if everyone simply chooses their sex?

NothingOnTellyAgain · 02/10/2018 22:24

Fallingirl thank you for posting that link, it's eye opening!

NothingOnTellyAgain · 02/10/2018 22:27

So this ties in with the queer theory thing I read the other day that boundaries in and of themselves are bad and all should be "queered" ie bent broken, no matter what they are.

All of this is not my area at all (I'm a mathsy type person) so it's fascinating. What is super interesting as an idea though is not so interesting when you start applying it to real life, then it's just terrifying.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 02/10/2018 22:29

Oldcrone + EA is and has been on hit list for change, bigtime.

Doesn't matter anyway, everything is working as if verbal self ID is already the law (even when going against the law eg schools)

AncientLights · 02/10/2018 22:41

"Trans women are women who have just had a different experience to you". Yeah, years of male socialisation and privilege, living in a male body. Just like me really.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 03/10/2018 08:42

No-one believes that apart from maybe a handful of people.

No-one believes that men can literally turn into women.

Not men not women not no-one. Not trans people themselves which is why the constant demands for validation and the rage.

Some people who say they believe it, when you dig a bit it turns out they have simply redefined the word "woman" so it includes whoever they want it to include. So they dont' believe it either.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 03/10/2018 08:44

Women are being threatened with rape, their children are being threatened, their livelihoods are being threatened, they are being expelled from political parties, investigated by the pollice, and NOT ALLLOWED to gather to discuss UK law

Beacsue they are not prepared to pretend that men can literally become women
When in fact, everybody knows that

pennydrew · 03/10/2018 08:47

Wow. This is a rather pathetic attempt at indoctrination.

I don’t ever vote labour again for the rest of my days. I’d already ruled out Lib Dem who I strategically voted for last time. Greens are obviously out. Great. Now I have nobody to vote for. And Zac Goldsmith is my MP. I’m a woman, get me out of here 😫

BeUpStanding · 03/10/2018 08:54

Dear Labour,

Fuck Off.

Regards,
Women

R0wantrees · 03/10/2018 09:18

Women are being threatened with rape, their children are being threatened, their livelihoods are being threatened, they are being expelled from political parties, investigated by the pollice, and NOT ALLLOWED to gather to discuss UK law

Beacsue they are not prepared to pretend that men can literally become women
When in fact, everybody knows that

Penny Mordant MP, the Minister for Women & Equalities attended a Stonewall reception yesterday at Conservative conference.

Stonewall tweet:

"Minister for Women & Equalities @ PennyMordaunt
thanks @ stonewalluk & everyone in room for being steadfast in face of hate; says we stand by #trans people who have faced so much hatred in past year; need to make #GRA reform and more a reality #ComeOutForTransEquality"

mobile.twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1047218495895814144

LGBT Labour 'Myth Busting' Trans rights re self-id GRA
OP posts:
NothingOnTellyAgain · 03/10/2018 09:50

The consultation was opened with a statement from Penny M that "transwomen are women" wasn't it,

So this is no surprise.

is it just down to her to decide the outcome though? Will she be able to filter teh results so they look a different way? I don't know how it works. I'd imagine there'd be some independent people involved in analysis but who knows.

PM is bang up for locking rapists in womens prisons is the bottom line here and any other approach is hatred and bigotry.

The "oh no that won't happen don;t be so silly" is infuriating and also, a massive lie.

What they MEAN is that women dont' matter, risk of rape is a fact of life for women and something that we should be used to and live with, from the age our breasts start to be noticable under our school uniforms, and men must have anything and everythign they want.

R0wantrees · 03/10/2018 11:43

14/9/2018
If MPs can’t debate a rapist in a woman’s jail, politics has failed
James Kirkup
(extract)
"Last week, it was confirmed that the State put a rapist and paedophile in a women’s prison. That rapist, who uses the name Karen White, then sexually assaulted four women in that prison.

This is, of course, an outrage, a failure of public administration of the first order. Many people are angry, among them members of the Government that oversaw this failure. Many people have questions about how that failure came about. How did the Prison Service come to decide that Karen White, a person with a male body and a history of violent sexual crimes, should be put in New Hall prison? (New Hall, incidentally, also has a ‘mother and baby unit.’ The State did not just put a rapist in a women’s jail, they put a convicted paedophile in prison with children).

Was this just a catastrophic failure of judgement? Was it the result of flawed policy on the handling of transgender inmates? Did a climate of unthinking acquiescence to the demands of a highly effective transgender rights lobby contribute to this horrible mistake?

These are all legitimate questions, questions that should be debated and answered by the ministers responsible. These are the questions that Parliament exists to debate: questions about the conduct of public policy.

As I and others have noted repeatedly, a lot of politicians privately ask such questions about transgender issues, but many keep quiet about it – for fear of being labelled ‘transphobic’ or worse. I know serving ministers who have real doubts about some of these things, but dare not speak publicly.

Fortunately, a few MPs are willing to speak out. The obvious seriousness of the Karen White case persuaded more than one MP that the Commons should call a minister to explain and account for the incident.

David Davies, Tory MP for Monmouth, thus tabled an Urgent Question, a parliamentary request for the House to summon a minister to discuss the issues raised by the Karen White case, and of other transgender sex offenders in the prison estate. (Yes, there are others. There is at least one male-born rapist in a women’s prison today.)" (cont)

I’d have bet on him accepting a UQ on Karen White and transgender inmates. He didn’t. Mr Davies says the Speaker rejected his request. There are whispers that at least one other MP was also rebuffed.

To recap: the State put a rapist in a jail full of vulnerable women. That rapist then sexually assaulted four of those women. MPs wanted to know how that happened, and to question the ministers responsible for those events. The Speaker of the House of Commons said they could not do so.

The story of transgender policy in Britain today is a story of political failure, where many people fail to do their job and speak openly about matters of clear public interest. Writing about it this year, I’ve grown accustomed to that failure, though no less angry about it." (continues)
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/the-state-has-failed-karen-whites-victims/

OP posts:
ClosdesMouches · 03/10/2018 12:01

I've been a Labour voter for 38 years. I will never vote Labour again.