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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Why does UN say Gender Dysphoria NOT mental illness?

55 replies

Judder · 01/10/2018 15:56

AFAIK the World Health Org changed the definition in the last year or so to say it isn't a mental illness. Does anyone with scientific or medical or psychiatric knowledge understand why the definition changed? If it's not a mental illness, what kind of condition is it classed as and why? I've tried looking into this but it all goes over my head. Or if this has been discussed and I missed it, please could some kind person post a link to that thread. Ta.

OP posts:
ValWiggin · 01/10/2018 16:26

Curious about this too. I saw the same statement on the NHS pages, but it was (iirc) simply asserted, and not evidenced.

JustNotCricketIsIt · 01/10/2018 16:32

They believe males can become women and decided everyone has to accept this.

R0wantrees · 01/10/2018 16:37

Perhaps worth looking at where the lobbying for this has come from?

Was it from medical professionals, trans rights activists and/or others?

Bowlofbabelfish · 01/10/2018 16:39

There has been a concerted push by tras to get the DSM changed to remove this as a mental illness. There is an organisation called GATE that has focused on this:

This article is s long read, but very good.

‘Coordinating an international initiative focused on the ICD-11 revision and reform, supporting processes of legal depathologization and advocating for the identification of pathologization as a ground for human rights violations’

This would mean that the standard of care changes to a default of affirmation- meaning children will be able to access drugs etc younger and the likelihood of the doctors who push them being sued is lowered

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3328210-Follow-the-money-who-is-funding-the-US-transborg

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 01/10/2018 16:46

If it's not any kind of illness then why is the NHS treating it?

Seems to me that you can't have it both ways. If being trans is just totally mainstream, no kind of illness, then trans individuals will have to pay privately for any body mods they fancy.

JustNotCricketIsIt · 01/10/2018 16:53

If it's not any kind of illness then why is the NHS treating it?

It's almost as if the NHS is pretending it's not really an illness, just like many believe the government is pretending that males are actual women.

Father Christmas and the tooth fairy are pretend games some parents play with small children in order to teach them about lies.

heresyandwitchcraft · 01/10/2018 16:58

I think what happened is that there is a concerted effort to move gender dysphoria away from the "mental health" category to the "sexual health" one. This is so people can still have a diagnosable condition in order to access health interventions, but don't have to be labelled as needing mental health input, despite the fact that the very term "gender dysphoria" is a pretty new term meant to express that being "transgender" is not in and of itself a mental illness, but the stress of having a gender identity that is mismatched from your sex can significantly impair functioning.
It also provides less of a psychiatric lead in this, which I think is a great shame, given what we know that gender identity is still super new and counselling can help people unpick complex feelings. And the fact that really the best people to manage co-morbid depression/suicide risk are the mental health professionals.
To be clear, I think it's all part of concerted lobbying by transgender activists. The goal-posts move all the time in this, despite the science still being in its infancy. I suspect it also means we are moving to an "affirmation-only, informed consent" model, where people get access to permanent medical interventions without any professional psychological assessment first.

OldCrone · 01/10/2018 17:12

The trans lobby try to put gender identity into the same bracket as sexual orientation. Being gay is not an illness, therefore it follows that gender dysphoria, aka being trans, is also not an illness. But if it is not an illness, why does it require medical intervention, particularly if it is a child with gender dysphoria? I can't think of any other non-illnesses which require serious and immediate medical intervention and major irreversible surgery to cure the non-illness.

KatVonGulag · 01/10/2018 17:17

I believe from reading the nhs website that they understand transgender people to have a problem with hormone receptors in the brain. So they don't pick up the hormone for their natal sex. I guess that leaves them feeling disphoria and makes them identify as the opposite sex.

That theory doesn't explain why pips bunce is trans though. Do the hormone receptors only work part time for him/her/zee?

Plus what about bi-polar? Isn't that a chemical imbalance in the brain? Why is that a mental illness. Hormones are chemicals?

There needs to be much more research on this.

Bowlofbabelfish · 01/10/2018 17:20

I believe from reading the nhs website that they understand transgender people to have a problem with hormone receptors in the brain. So they don't pick up the hormone for their natal sex.

You wouldn’t happen to have a link for that would you?

JustNotCricketIsIt · 01/10/2018 17:21

Mental health is a fairly new science.

In years gone by Humorism theory was all the rage.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/10/2018 17:25

I'm not sure if 'mental illness' is an accurate description- Is dysphoria maybe more of a 'non neurotypical' type of condition?

OldCrone · 01/10/2018 17:28

I just had a look at the NHS website to try to find the bit about hormone receptors mentioned by KatVonGulag. I couldn't find anything about that, but according to the NHS these are symptoms of gender dysphoria in children:

disliking or refusing to wear clothes that are typically worn by their sex and wanting to wear clothes typically worn by the opposite sex

disliking or refusing to take part in activities and games that are typically associated with their sex, and wanting to take part in activities and games typically associated with the opposite sex

preferring to play with children of the opposite biological sex

Did they get all their information from Mermaids ?

ErrolTheDragon · 01/10/2018 17:36

* disliking or refusing to wear clothes that are typically worn by their sex and wanting to wear clothes typically worn by the opposite sex

disliking or refusing to take part in activities and games that are typically associated with their sex, and wanting to take part in activities and games typically associated with the opposite sex

preferring to play with children of the opposite biological sex
*

Exactly the same 'symptoms' as being a gender nonconforming kid who - if allowed to just be themselves - won't have any particular issues with their sex or sexuality then?

OldCrone · 01/10/2018 17:39

Exactly the same 'symptoms' as being a gender nonconforming kid who - if allowed to just be themselves - won't have any particular issues with their sex or sexuality then?

So not an illness at all. But why do the NHS advocate treatment for a non-illness?

WineGummyBear · 01/10/2018 20:09

I was reading up on this a couple of weeks ago. I'm sure it said on the webpage that they were no longer classifying it as a mental illness to reduce the stigma. As if we shouldn't just reduce the stigma of mental illness itself...

Original poster
Judder · 01/10/2018 20:12

Thanks everyone for links and info. I have long found it baffling that I have been unable to find a link to explain or a simple answer to this question. I mean - they're the UN so you might have thought they would have robust studies and data to back it up, but nothing is on display. I now have more to consider, not least of which is the NHS website which I've looked up (thanks) and says "Occasionally, the hormones that trigger the development of biological sex may not work properly on the brain, reproductive organs and genitals, causing differences between them." This is a very certain statement but I have found nothing to back this up. If anyone has any idea what this is based on I'd love to know. I understand from reading the book "Testosterone Rex" by Cordelia Fines that hormones do not a pink brain or a blue brain make. But it's a while since I read it so maybe I just need ot read it again to understand more what she says. There is also a downright LIE on the NHS website. It says that most people feel aligned with their gender. What an utter nonsense thing to say. I have never 'felt' like a woman. I know I'm a woman because of my biology and the way society treats me. This idea that most of us walk around feeling our gender is balderdash, I discover from talking to most women and they say the same as me. Hmmm....

OP posts:
WingsofXXSteel · 01/10/2018 20:25

I just can't get my head around the gender allignment as any sort of arguement. As a 70s child with late teen dc I firmly remember the emphasis being on breaking those barriers and making sure girls and boys could play with baby dolls and trucks equally without being gender forced about it. Same with clothes, why put toddler dd in a pretty frock and tell her to keep out of the dirt when her dbs are climbing trees in dungarees?

It was an active discussion among parents and mothers were making conscious anti gender decisions and pushing for equality of the sexes from babyhood up. What has happened?!?

ChattyLion · 01/10/2018 21:06

I can't think of any other non-illnesses which require serious and immediate medical intervention and major irreversible surgery to cure the non-illness.

^ This.

The NHS is under massive strain. We need to use resources effectively and always in the best interests of patients.

Psychological support and watchful waiting approaches seem sensible from a best interests perspective.
Whereas rushing to medical or surgical ‘affirmation’ just seems like a political action being done on to someone’s body in a permanent way.

We need to listen much more carefully to people who de- transition about their experiences and needs and what kind of support they did or didn’t get.

Ekphrasis · 01/10/2018 21:14

And yet elsewhere on the who website they're very clear that sex and gender are two very different things.

www.who.int/gender-equity-rights/understanding/gender-definition/en/

Ekphrasis · 01/10/2018 21:24

Judder I think there's an androgen insensitivity syndrome whereby hormones don't have the required effect on the physical body. Extremely rare though.

However, there really is no such thing as a feminine or masculine brain. There are a higher number of male children born who have sp and Lang or motor difficulties but that's nothing to do with gendered preferences, hobbies or abilities.

ChattyLion · 01/10/2018 21:27

Can you put links to the NHS website quotes? I have found some shockers on NHS Choices (their patient information website Hmm) in relation to gender dysphoria

OldCrone · 01/10/2018 21:30

This is what the NHS site says about causes of gender dysphoria

Occasionally, the hormones that trigger the development of biological sex may not work properly on the brain, reproductive organs and genitals, causing differences between them. This may be caused by:
- additional hormones in the mother’s system – possibly as a result of taking medication
- the foetus’ insensitivity to the hormones, known as androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) – when this happens, gender dysphoria may be caused by hormones not working properly in the womb

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

The NHS now seems to be getting its information from transactivists on twitter rather than from scientific and medical research.

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