I think Scouts safeguarding advice has been updated to remove consideration for ALL children..?

[NothingOnTellyAgain]

Reposting from a Guides thread.
Was just having a look at Scouts policy again.
It looks different to when I last looked, completely different. Unless I am looking at a different part of the site.

Stuff about comfort of all children has been removed > it's much more in line with GG now.

members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4228/gender-identity-supporting-young-people?cat=377,378&moduleID=10

Anyone else read it before - and think it has changed as well?

The idea that they would go and change it to reduce the safeguarding they had in place, when all this is going on with GG, is pretty boggling.

I'll post my comments below.

Scouts guidance may have been updated to be more in line with guides?

No longer mentioning anything about other children being comfortable or maybe I'm reading a different part of the site

"What toilets should the young person use?
Unisex toilet facilities are preferable but often not available. Always be led by the preferences of the young person, around which facilities they feel most comfortable and safe using. Ideally, this would be a cubicle in facilities of their true gender, but they may wish to use the accessible/disabled toilet as an alternative. If using the accessible/disabled toilet is the young person’s preferred option, refer to and label toilets appropriately (e.g. ‘unisex/accessible toilets’ rather than ‘disabled’)
Be aware that young trans people may have a lot of anxiety around using toilet facilities, and may even avoid using the toilet or drinking. This can lead to ill health, so it is important to be aware of this and provide reassurance if needed, reminding that they can use whichever facilities they find most comfortable and at any time."

Girls however who may have anxiety around menstruation or may have been sexually abused just have to GET THE FUCK ON WITH IT AND NOT MAKE A FUSS.

SCOUTS

i think this has changed

"What about nights away, camps and trips?
Discuss options well in advance with the young person and others involved, whilst protecting the young person’s right to privacy. The principle is to make sure that everyone is comfortable with the arrangements. Be sensitive to the needs of the young person; avoid making them feel singled out or not respected.
As with all young people, confirm whether the young person is on any medication that they will need to take.
Consider having one named Leader who is aware of the young person’s biological sex and any treatment/medication they are on, who could provide support if medical treatment is needed. Ask the young person who they wish the leader to be; regardless of the leader’s gender.
How can I manage the sleeping arrangements? There is no rule in Scouting stating that young people must be split by gender for sleeping arrangements. Sleeping arrangements should be carefully planned, assessing the needs and ages of young people, and any risks. A young person may be binding their chests or wearing very tight underwear to flatten themselves. The chance to privately remove this clothing overnight is very important.
Some options to consider, risk assess and discuss with the young person/family, are as follows:
Sharing with other young people of their true gender (or their biological sex if they would prefer), either in large or small tents with their trusted friends.
Large tents with various sleeping compartments, discretely allocating the young person their own compartment for privacy.
Having their own tent / room"

NO REFERENCE to the comfort of other children?

Has anyone else read this before members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4228/gender-identity-supporting-young-people?cat=377,378&moduleID=10

I believe it has been updated so it removes references to all children being comfortable, include lots of stuff about medication that wasn't there before and some frankly bizarre comments about "media attention".

The MN idea that Scouts was a bit more sensible around safeguarding is no longer up to date I think.

The intro to gender ID bit compares transgender to having a disability and says all reasonable adjusts must be made

"What is the law?
Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010, whether or not the person is undergoing medical treatment. This means that as with ‘disability’, organisations have a duty to make reasonable adjustments to ensure that trans Members can access Scouting, including anticipating the needs of any future members.

Other gender identity differences
A person may feel they do not belong to either gender (defining themselves as Gender Queer), or feel that neither term describes them accurately (‘gender-neutral’ or ‘Agender’), or even that they are female on some days and male on others, ‘gender fluidity’, "

They also say that trans includes anyone who has not started "presenting" in their "true" gender and includes genderfluid etc.

The reading of this is therefore that in Scouts (as is general trans activist preferneced):

No need to change name, clothes, shave, anything
If this person says they're a girl they're a girl
Need to go in with the girls at all times
No consideration as to how this feels for girls needs to be given (not mentioned anywhere)
Includes overnights and sharign sleeping

Scouts is 10.5 to 14 and explorers 14 to 18.

This means an 18 yo boy who looks like a boy, talks like a boy, heterosexual, 6ft+ tall could be bunked in with a 14 yo girl and there's nothing she can do about it.

Same as guides but I think guides would expect them to at least put a dress on? (Although girls wear trousers all teh time so whatever).

Of course putting on a dress and saying call me Alice doesn't actally change a boy into a girl >
But with scouts there is no need to even bother with that which might at leats have put a few chancers off

The aim here is to have NO BARRIERS and having been on some queer theory threads recently this is the political idogolgy of the movements, all "barriers" are "bad" my definition and must be "queered". It's got nothng to do with troubled children.

If there is nothing sinister going on, why dont they alert parents to changes in policy, and allow them to track incremental changes?

Oh FFS, there was I feeling hopeful. GIRLS can get ill from avoiding toilet use when they only have the option of unisex toilets. Why don't they acknowledge that?

"There is no rule in Scouting stating that young people must be split by gender for sleeping arrangements. Sleeping arrangements should be carefully planned, assessing the needs and ages of young people, and any risks."

And from this you got:

Need to go in with the girls at all times
No consideration as to how this feels for girls needs to be given ??

Who gives a fuck abotu cunty girls, Ineedacupof tea?

Sorry everyone for the wall of text!

I'd be interested if anyone else can remember what it said and confirm if it has changed?

I think it HAS, but it was a while since I read it.

I might check the advice for leaders section if there is one.

Searched it I can't find anything else.

I think this has been updated and potentialyl while GG are in teh news for this

What now?

TheFallenMadonna

They said before explicitly something about discussing with children / parents.
That has gone,

The Guidance elsewhere says that children should be treated as their "true" gender for everyhting, and they must be given the choice, no mention of anyone else having a choice.

If you have 7 girls and 3 rooms, then you split them 3, 3, 2 right?
They are all girls, so no issues around who goes with who.

OK so they don't go as far as GG in saying that a girl who objects to share with a person with a cock needs to be re-educated out of tehir transphobia,

But I am SURE this is diferent to before.

I specifically remember what they said about binders, this is different now.

I think the guidance looks okay actually.

I think a lot of it would protect DDs bestie who although a trans boy, wants to be with DD....in terms of sleeping etc.
It seems to talk about all children's perspectives too and lots about uni sex facilities. They are right about trans children not going to the loo, and no one wants that.

Don't kill me!

""What toilets should the young person use?
Unisex toilet facilities are preferable but often not available. Always be led by the preferences of the young person, around which facilities they feel most comfortable and safe using. Ideally, this would be a cubicle in facilities of their true gender, but they may wish to use the accessible/disabled toilet as an alternative. If using the accessible/disabled toilet is the young person’s preferred option, refer to and label toilets appropriately (e.g. ‘unisex/accessible toilets’ rather than ‘disabled’)
Be aware that young trans people may have a lot of anxiety around using toilet facilities, and may even avoid using the toilet or drinking. This can lead to ill health, so it is important to be aware of this and provide reassurance if needed, reminding that they can use whichever facilities they find most comfortable and at any time"

Where is the consideration for girls and their anxieties around toileting?

A girl wearing a binder sharing a tent with several teenage boys. Huh?

I would sincerely hope that any scout leader would not let that happen regardless of the young transgender person's wishes or Scout policy.

I am sure there are sensible workarounds if common sense is allowed.

I'm not going to kill you Kat

But I think it has changed

I'd really like to see if anyone else can confirm that.

Because if they have changed it while this stuff is going on with GG in the media that is really .

No. My DH is a scout leader, has dealt with this issue, and it was certainly given more consideration than you suggest.

I'll ask DH if he thinks it has changed.

That is up to the local person though.

The Guidance and Policies are important to give direction and lay the grounding.

My girls are in GG and their leaders are very sensible practical down to earth women who I have no doubt would protect girls at all costs. I'm sure the Scouts people on the ground are the same.

However, the policies that allow for certain things, mean that any leaders who are not so sensible or have seen a loophole, have an "in".

That's the point of safeguarding.

I've seen an old thread with a quote so just going to see if it has changed. That is what is bothering me is that I think it has been updated to change a lot of the stuff that was there before that felt more interested in all children.

Lots of talk in there about how to accommodate girls who are binding their breasts.

I could only read a little bit as I was getting (genuine) palpitations at the thought that adults think it's OK and that girls doing that to themselves need to be supported in their actions.

Hmmm

The bit about sleeping seems the same, at least the one line I can find on another thread.
The stuff around toilets and binding are different though - I think. Liek I say, it was a long time ago that I read it!

I am still uncomfortable with the Guidance - in general my atttitudes have hardened around this topic as I see how org after org is quietly / has already quietly changed their rules.

People say "Oh I'm sure in real life it will be done sensibly" but we have issues in prisons, hosp wards, schools, where the people making the decisions are supposed to be the absolute experts in risk assessment, so I dont' see how any of these child orgs will be any different.

Do you think not giving them privacy on scout camp will stop them binding? Or do you think they would just not go to camp?

Who doesn't want to give children privacy?

The WHOLE POINT is that children need privacy.

Sometimes from all other children.

Sometimes from chidlren of the opposite sex.

Um. I think the scout policy is much more sensible than Gg. It talks about risk assessments and considering the needs of everyone, not just the trans kids. If trans kids join scouts (and I see absolutely no reason for them not to), scouts have to find a workable solution. My interpretation of what they've said is that they will be sensitive to the individuals and contexts. That seems entirely different to GG which has said the rights of trans kids trumps everyone else without question and if you don't like it you can sling your hook.

My post was in response see to the previous poster who had palpitations at the thought of scout leaders accomodating privacy for binding, and equating that with agreeing with it.

I agree re binders. How on earth has it become acceptable for girls to be doing this? Have they been led to believe that if they do they'll grow up to be men and have all the advantages that that brings? It's complete madness. I feel very sorry for these girls and the long term impact this will have on their lives.