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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I think Scouts safeguarding advice has been updated to remove consideration for ALL children..?

39 replies

NothingOnTellyAgain · 30/09/2018 13:23

Reposting from a Guides thread.
Was just having a look at Scouts policy again.
It looks different to when I last looked, completely different. Unless I am looking at a different part of the site.

Stuff about comfort of all children has been removed > it's much more in line with GG now.

members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4228/gender-identity-supporting-young-people?cat=377,378&moduleID=10

Anyone else read it before - and think it has changed as well?

The idea that they would go and change it to reduce the safeguarding they had in place, when all this is going on with GG, is pretty boggling.

I'll post my comments below.

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NothingOnTellyAgain · 30/09/2018 14:13

You believe the women on here want girls who bind their chests to be forced to remove tehir binders in a tenfull of boys? Or even a tentfull of girls?

You seem to have very peculiar ideas ie that women on here who are worried about safeguarding - women with children - who are in these orgs - are genuinely interested in making girls undress in front of others when they don't feel comfortbale doing so.

That says a lot I think. You do not believe any of this is in good faith and that we hate certain kids and want them to be uncomfortable.

OK whatever.

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TheFallenMadonna · 30/09/2018 14:17

No. I don't think that at all. Which is why I was surprised that that bit was contentious.

JellySlice · 30/09/2018 14:19

It's been like this for a while. The difference between the GGUK and Scouting guidelines is that Scouting suggests that the trans child can use neutral ground, rather than that girls cannot object. Scouting recognises that the trans child will have sex-specific needs, whereas GG ignores them. Scouting - I think - recognises that there may be sex-based safeguarding issues when a trans child shares certain spaces with 'same gender' ie opposite sex children, but doesn't differentiate these issues from straightforward opposite sex issues.

That said, Scouting Leaders in my family are deeply concerned. They are used to dealing with mi xed sex groups, and are concerned about privacy issues, but also very worried about binders. None of them would be happy supporting the use of a harmful device.

R0wantrees · 30/09/2018 14:23

of their true gender

The only thing that can objectively and factually be described as 'true' is sex.

It is well recognised that a high percentage of young people who question their gender identity do not pursue this.

There are prominant trans-rights activists who have at first asserted their gender identity being 'transmen' or 'transwomen' and now identify as 'non-binary'.

There are currently 71 (?) gender identities listed on Facebook, why not 84, 176, 2376, 32451? Presumably no-one would insist that at this moment in history we 'know' all of the possible 'gender identities'?

Rebecca Reilly Cooper writes,
'Gender is not a spectrum
The idea that ‘gender is a spectrum’ is supposed to set us free. But it is both illogical and politically troubling'
(extract)
"Humans of both sexes would be liberated if we recognised that while gender is indeed an internal, innate, essential facet of our identities, there are more genders than just ‘woman’ or ‘man’ to choose from. And the next step on the path to liberation is the recognition of a new range of gender identities: so we now have people referring to themselves as ‘genderqueer’ or ‘non-binary’ or ‘pangender’ or ‘polygender’ or ‘agender’ or ‘demiboy’ or ‘demigirl’ or ‘neutrois’ or ‘aporagender’ or ‘lunagender’ or ‘quantumgender’… I could go on. An oft-repeated mantra among proponents of this view is that ‘gender is not a binary; it’s a spectrum’. What follows from this view is not that we need to tear down the pink and the blue boxes; rather, we simply need to recognise that there are many more boxes than just these two.

At first blush this seems an appealing idea, but there are numerous problems with it, problems that render it internally incoherent and politically unattractive." (continues)

And here we have an irony about some people insisting that they and a handful of their fellow gender revolutionaries are non-binary: in doing so, they create a false binary between those who conform to the gender norms associated with their sex, and those who do not. In reality, everybody is non-binary. We all actively participate in some gender norms, passively acquiesce with others, and positively rail against others still. So to call oneself non-binary is in fact to create a new false binary. It also often seems to involve, at least implicitly, placing oneself on the more complex and interesting side of that binary, enabling the non-binary person to claim to be both misunderstood and politically oppressed by the binary cisgender people.

If you identify as pangender, is the claim that you represent every possible point on the spectrum? All at the same time? How might that be possible, given that the extremes necessarily represent incompatible opposites of one another?" (continues)

Once we assert that the problem with gender is that we currently recognise only two of them, the obvious question to ask is: how many genders would we have to recognise in order not to be oppressive? Just how many possible gender identities are there?

The only consistent answer to this is: 7 billion, give or take. There are as many possible gender identities as there are humans on the planet. According to Nonbinary.org, one of the main internet reference sites for information about non-binary genders, your gender can be frost or the Sun or music or the sea or Jupiter or pure darkness. Your gender can be pizza.

But if this is so, it’s not clear how it makes sense or adds anything to our understanding to call any of this stuff ‘gender’, as opposed to just ‘human personality’ or ‘stuff I like’ (continues)

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

NothingOnTellyAgain · 30/09/2018 14:25

Scouts includes agender genderfluid etc under trans definition

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miketv · 30/09/2018 14:43

Not sure about the other stuff, but the medication bit was in there before.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 30/09/2018 15:44

Thanks Mike- looks like my memory is not good!

I think recent events have reduced my tolerance for all of this.

The stuff about toilets is just a total slap in the face for girls. Many girls have anxiety around this but it's not worth a mention is it.

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R0wantrees · 30/09/2018 15:48

Scouts includes agender genderfluid etc under trans definition

So a scout who identifies as 'gender fluid' should be supported to use the facilities etc of both/either sex?

NothingOnTellyAgain · 30/09/2018 16:17

They don't spell it out.

This is the issue with a lot of this it's unclear, wooly, open to interpretation.

The main guidance around toilets sleeping is assuming mtf or ftm, and anxious scared kids who are particularly vulnerable. One who 'presents ' as their preferred gender (sex if we're talking binders).

The inclusion of agender gender fluid in the definition points in a different direction though and would accommodate a 17yo Phil bunce into whatever they felt like doing that day + of course no actual need to dress different or stand like I'm a little teapot etc.

So the example is of a child that elicits sympathy but the full guidance allows for much less sympathetic examples

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frazzled1 · 30/09/2018 17:42

"What toilets should the young person use?
Unisex toilet facilities are preferable but often not available. Always be led by the preferences of the young person, around which facilities they feel most comfortable and safe using. Ideally, this would be a cubicle in facilities of their true gender, but they may wish to use the accessible/disabled toilet as an alternative. If using the accessible/disabled toilet is the young person’s preferred option, refer to and label toilets appropriately (e.g. ‘unisex/accessible toilets’ rather than ‘disabled’)
Be aware that young trans people may have a lot of anxiety around using toilet facilities, and may even avoid using the toilet or drinking. This can lead to ill health, so it is important to be aware of this and provide reassurance if needed, reminding that they can use whichever facilities they find most comfortable and at any time."

Sounds like Woodcraft Folk have taken similar advice for their Transgenger Inclusion (draft March 2018):

What toilets should the young person use?

• It is the young person’s legal right to use the toilets of their choice
• Always be led by the preferences of the young person, around which facilities they feel most comfortable and safe using. If using the accessible/disabled toilet is the young person’s preferred option, refer to and label toilets appropriately (e.g. ‘unisex/accessible toilets’ rather than ‘disabled’)
• Be aware that young trans people may have a lot of anxiety around using toilet facilities, and may even avoid using the toilet or drinking. This can lead to ill health, so it is important to be aware of this and provide reassurance if needed, reminding them that they can use whichever facilities they find most comfortable and at any time.

No mention of the comfort and safety of children other than that of the trans child. Hmm

MipMipMip · 30/09/2018 17:52

I do find the "preferably true gender" but interesting. It suggests they aren't 100% believers, more going along with it.

young person and others involved, I hope the others means other children who would be sharing facilities with them. But far too open to interpretation.

I would really like scouts to be safe. And I think it is better than Guides right now. But both involve children keeping secrets and that is a very bad plan.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 30/09/2018 17:58

Woodcraft folk advice is to open accessible facilities up to all and sundry?

Christ they are steamrollering over everyone aren't they
As if LGB & feminist groups weren't enough, disabled poeple need to shove over as well.

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Anlaf · 30/09/2018 18:02

Here's the wayback machine Web archive from 2016

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20160711231838/members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4228/gender-identity-supporting-young-people?cat=377" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20160711231838/members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4228/gender-identity-supporting-young-people?cat=377,378&moduleID=10

At a glance it looks similar

NothingOnTellyAgain · 30/09/2018 20:17

Happy to take your word for it

I put the child blocks on the router the other day and it has decided not to let me look at the link!

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