The biggest GRA issue with 'the public'

[FusionChefGeoff]

As I see it, is that the vast majority of Joe Public have no concept of the trans umbrella and that 80-90% (or whatever the stat) retain their penis.

I really think every public campaign / appearance needs to focus on this.

A huge number of TWAW allies are labouring under the old definition of transgender - assume TW have transitioned with full surgery - and I would bet my bottom dollar would do a swift about turn when they realised the new reality.

Fusion

I agree. Every person I have spoken to did not know either of these things

... and once I explained AND about self ID they got it

I didn't know either, and was total when I found out. Also people like Danielle Moscato, Alex, etc, when I realised what the woman is supposed to include this. .

You are correct. As keeps being pointed out in these threads the GRA was signed off very much under the radar, and TRAs were hoping to achieve the same this time around.

If everyone knew about this then there would be general outrage. The difficult bit is raising awareness. It's startinf to happen now, but I fear it may be too little too late.

Problem is that when you point out that self-ID means any man can just declare himself to be a woman and then wander into the women's changing rooms at a swimming pool waving his willy about & you get labelled as anti-Trans.

I think most people haven't thought about it very much. Full stop. Like most things in life, it's often only when you see the relevance of an issue to yourself that you take notice.
Girl Guiding is probably the thing that shone a light on this for me and made me think there were unintended consequences that would be harmful.

Agreed. The usual progress is "well transwomen don't have penises anyway so...", "what do you mean most of them do? that's not possible, trans people hate their own genitals so much they don't even want to look at them", "OK so that one person clearly loves their genitals but they're not true trans", "what do you mean, even having dysphoria is no longer considered to be an essential part of being trans?", "WTF is a female penis?", "wait, what we used to call transvestites are considered transwomen now?", "OK but obviously nobody would let someone who's just a transvestite into women's spaces", "...other than that one, but surely that must have been a mistake", "...oh, and that one too", "shit, another one, really?", "surely this must all be a misunderstanding and say Stonewall will realize that this is happening and put a stop to it", "Stonewall are supporting this? WTF?", "and the Labour Party are too?", "The Girl Guides? Really? Fucking seriously?", "Hello, my name is UsedToBeATransAlly and I can't fucking believe the shit I've just realized".

The stumbling block, IME of talking to men is that they feel insulted by the idea that they are accused of being dangerous

But then if you talk about why we have sex-segregated spaces, and sports, they understand it

For women, IME it's about not wanting to be seen as mean to those they perceive as more victimised than they actually are

I showed someone the Stonewall trans advisory group yesterday, and pointed out why several of those individuals are unsuited to advising on government policy

The anti-trans accusation is to shut down debate, however carefully you try and explain otherwise.

Angry bang on, thats what happened with me.

Even after the Consultation finishes, we must keep buggering on!!!

With men the easiest ways in seem to be a. in sport this is completely unfair and unsportsmanlike - it's cheating, basically, and b. even if you think women in general are just being silly to think men are dangerous, what about your daughter/niece, are you OK with them having to share a changing room at the pool with an adult with a cock and balls?

I spoke to my parents and asked my Mum if she was in a care home would she be ok with having a man do intimate care for her. Mum and Dad instant Peak.

Also do you think little girls have a right NOT to see a penis in their changing rooms, or to sleep in single sex accommodation, are questions to ask.

I concur, most people I speak to aren't aware that the majority of transwomen have penises.

100% agree. I was so frustrated that this wasn't hammered home on This Morning yesterday, in response to IW's soft-voiced 'I have gender dysphoria' heart-string tugging. If the answer to that had been - 'You may have, but under self-ID most of the people sharing women's spaces won't, and may be sexual fetishists with fully functioning penises' the conversation would have been very different.

(No criticism of PP, btw - heroic effort under impossible circs)

I do realize the sexism involved in invoking the "you have an obligation to protect the women and girls personally associated with you" part of male socialization, but frankly if a bloke is already sexist enough that his first reaction to having the risk to women in general pointed out is to bristle and get defensive, then he's also sexist enough that that's likely to be the only way to get through to him. We can talk about the nuances of how to rearrange the stereotype furniture later, after the house is no longer on fire.

AAK

Yes. That's true

chrysanthemums, can you post a link to the stonewall advisory group? I don't know who is on it. Thanks!

Reactions I've experienced are: there are so few TW that the impact will be minimal; they have no cock/balls so pose no risk; they aren't sexually interested in women so are harmless/safe in that respect; they are quiet and timid and keep under the radar so won't draw attention to themselves...

Oh and then the risk assessments and safeguarding reassurances kick in as they process

But we have already done the risk assessments and applied safeguarding. That's how we arrived at sex segregation in the first place.

Most people I've talked to agree with me eventually but still think the number of men who will take advantage of the new law is so small that it's not worth worrying about and that the government won't go through with it anyway. They have unwavering belief that the politicians will do the right thing ultimately (e.g. it won't happen).

A huge number of TWAW allies are labouring under the old definition of transgender - assume TW have transitioned with full surgery
I agree.

Personally, I have zero issue with sharing sex segregated spaces with post op trans women like we have been doing for years. I totally and utterly support them through their dysphoria and if that means medically transitioning then I whole heartedly support that (I don't think humans can meaningfully change sex, chromosomes as all that but it's as close as to alleviate dysphoria).

Until I joined MN I had no idea that the TRA agenda existed. I had no idea that individuals wanted to force access to women's spaces so they can wave their willies around and claim they are more of a woman than I am. I had no idea that there's quite a nasty group of people who seem to hate women trying to silence debate through bullying and claims of bigot.

The assumption that all/most transwomen are gay and therefore no threat to women is definitely part of the "why not just let them in?" responses, and therefore something that needs to be brought up every time. The majority of prominent older transwomen have children conceived in the usual manner. These are not people who have no sexual interest in women. Women need to know that in order to decide whether or not they're OK with sharing spaces.

I'm one of those women who's happily shared some spaces with gay male friends, and with old school transsexuals of the "was always a femmey gay boy" variety. Even as a far more naive young woman I'd have balked at sharing those same spaces with hetero males regardless of "identity", clothing choices, etc.

IME, the biggest problem I’ve faced when trying to explain is that people don’t understand that the goal is to force society to accept that trans women are actually women. Even my friends who state that they have zero problems with men in changing rooms etc (how lucky, that they haven’t had the reality of male violence drilled into them) still don’t believe that it’s anything more than a courtesy to call them ‘she’ out of politeness, and don’t understand that what’s being asked is a step on from that. So all the really important points about the definition of ‘woman’ and female erasure are lost because they don’t really believe it’s under threat.

I agree, it’s all about penises. And squeamishness about saying so.

Yes, there's a huge element of these things are so absurd and such an obviously terrible idea that many people can't believe they're really happening.

Self identification is a much bigger issue than just trans purple being able to access single seed spaces. What it means is that ANY man can identify as a woman and enter women's spaces. He doesn't have to have a grc, he doesn't have to have lived as a woman (whatever the hell that means), he doesn't need to have shaved his legs, he doesn't need to have had surgery, he just needs to self identify as a woman. How can anyone with any understanding of women's issues be OK with that???