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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dear Transactivists

87 replies

Estellesylvia · 29/09/2018 06:17

This is a message, not to trans people, but to the transactivists who are doing everything in their power to silence women.

To the woman hating men who hide their loathing of women behind transactivism, and who cannot bear to hear us speak up and defy them. To the Serena Joys, the women who join these men in fighting to undo the gains that women have made in the past one hundred years. You are traitors to your sex.

In a week where a billboard stating the definition of woman has been removed for containing hate speech, and a women’s rights group have been stopped by a local council from gathering to meet, I want to send a clear message to the transactivists who are so desperate to silence us and who I know read Mumsnet. And I know I speak on behalf of many thousands of women, in ever growing numbers.

You will NEVER silence us.

You can ban us, from here, from social media. We will create new accounts. You can bully venues into cancelling our meetings. We will meet in each other’s living rooms, in parks, in the street if we have to. You can take our posters and billboards down. We will put up a hundred more in their place, every time.

And every time you try to silence us, you draw more attention to our cause, and we are joined by many more women, and men, who see your hatred and misogyny, and speak out against it.

We know you have the media and politicians and money and power on your side, and we are ordinary women, organising at grass roots, on a shoe string.

But you will never, ever silence us. No matter how hard you try. We will never stop fighting and the more you try to stop us, the more determined we become. We’re the great granddaughters of the suffragettes.

I have no doubt this post may be removed, as women are no longer allowed to stand up to bullies on Mumsnet. Even so, the sentiment will remain.

You will NEVER stop us.

OP posts:
ChrysanthemumsAreMums · 29/09/2018 07:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

YeTalkShiteHen · 29/09/2018 07:34

I don’t accept trans women are women, however I do differentiate between transgender people with gender dysphoria who deserve a 3rd space and support, and the activists who are using loopholes in woolly headed legislation to attack women and girls.

RepealtheGRA · 29/09/2018 07:38

I don’t accept trans women are women, however I do differentiate between transgender people with gender dysphoria who deserve a 3rd space and support, and the activists who are using loopholes in woolly headed legislation to attack women and girls.

That’s where we all are, isn’t it? Apart from the people with very dubious motivations.

FlowerpotFairyHouse · 29/09/2018 07:41

WRT the rights thing, so far, I've not seen the question, "What rights do trans people not currently have?" answered. By anyone. It is always ignored.

As for "women's rights", transwomen don't need them because women's rights are based around our biology/bodies and societal (men's) beliefs around our biology/bodies, and changes in life circumstances due to our biology/bodies that transwomen simply don't share.

Of course transpeople should be entitled to appropriate health care but TW simply do not need women's health services.

TW should not be discriminated against at work on the basis of being trans but, if they were to be, it is not for the same reason that women are discriminated against at work.

Etc

eurochick · 29/09/2018 07:44

Well said Lydia.

I fully support the right of anyone to dress how they want and appear how they like and to challenge society's gender stereotypes. I have real difficulty with going along with the fiction that a man in a dress and make up is a woman. It's asking me to go along with their body dysphoria. For me, it would be like agreeing that an anorexic is fat, because that is how they see themselves.

Feminism is about (among other things) challenging gender stereotypes. Self-ID seems to be about reinforcing them, which is where some of the clash comes from. Feminism is also about protecting hard-fought women's rights. If those are challenged by people who have benefitted from male privilege for most of their lives, that's pretty hard to take. It's easy to see how the conflict arises between GRAs and feminists.

ChrysanthemumsAreMums · 29/09/2018 07:45

Flowerpots

Yes. it is always ignored

Currently, transpeople have the rights any other person has

In addition, they have the right to apply for a GRC. The best level of safeguarding for women that we have (unfortunately)

The only right the don't have is to get into my head and make me change my belief

Beagadorsrock · 29/09/2018 07:54

I agree with OP

I am a goody two shoes and obviously (I don't know why it should be repeated) will never support any discrimination against people who choose not to adapt to rigid gender stereotypes.

BUT I want language to be respected and I do not want the descent into authoritarianism where some dodgy people take advantage of us being nice to impose their feelings and thoughts on us. I do not want to live in WokeNorthKorea, and I do not want to stand idly by while hard-fought-for rights for women and safeguarding rules are dismantled.

The Law protects:

Sex
Gender Reassignment

Not 'Gender' by itself

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 29/09/2018 07:56

SilverBirchTree, I know it's unlikely you'll come back. When asked difficult questions and shown difficult truths people tend to melt away. But:

  1. people's rights to express their true selves - what if someone's true self is a paedophile who likes to sexually assault women? hell no, not everyone has a right to express their true self. life isn't bloody x-factor

  2. I believe them to be as worthy of acceptance and respect as any other person yes depending on their actions. so if a person adheres to regressive and damaging gender stereotypes and then claims they have therefore changed sex, I am unlikely to have much respect for them

  3. their right to medical care, their right to the protection of the law The idea that because most people here understand that humans can't change sex means we don't support these basic rights for all is incredibly offensive. I think you should apologise for implying it. I'm getting very tired of being told I'm a bigot

Datun · 29/09/2018 07:58

I acknowledge a trans woman as a fellow woman.

Not unless you change the definition. How can people say this with no explanation and then expect to be taken seriously?

I support their place in society, their right to medical care, their right to express their true selves, their right to the protection of the law and I believe them to be as worthy of acceptance and respect as any other person.

As does everyone else, silly.

But not at all costs.

Not when it leads to rapists assaulting women in prison, weakening of safeguarding and an end to sex segregation.

And you can 'respect' male cross dressers for taking awards for women, but you'd be a fool (and in a minority of one).

You will NEVER silence us.

Never.

Movablefeast · 29/09/2018 07:59

Also any gender critical men who make statements and write articles are usually not attacked with the vitriol that women are. Attempts are made to aggressively silence women and it is so blatant and obvious that it is having a snowballing effect in how this misogynistic behavior is radicalizing women like myself who have not been politically active to this extent before.

RepealtheGRA · 29/09/2018 08:01

They’ve tried to silence Graham Linner, by targeting his wife. Again Misogyny.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/09/2018 08:26

I acknowledge a trans woman as a fellow woman. I support their place in society, their right to medical care, their right to express their true selves, their right to the protection of the law and I believe them to be as worthy of acceptance and respect as any other person

What chrysantheum said

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/09/2018 08:28

Yes to lydia

Exactly right...words mean something

YeTalkShiteHen · 29/09/2018 08:28

That’s where we all are, isn’t it? Apart from the people with very dubious motivations.

I thought so, but given that we’re all being labelled transphobic and attacked regularly for trying to explain where we’re coming from I felt it needed to be said (for the millionth time sadly)

Estellesylvia · 29/09/2018 08:41

I have seen very little transphobia here.

Criticism of individual transpeople’s behaviour, yes.

Standing up to transactivism, yes.

That is not transphobic.

OP posts:
RiverTam · 29/09/2018 08:47

Silver trans people have all those rights. The only right they don’t have is to foist their personal beliefs on other people and insist everyone else accept them for the sex they believe (but of course never will be) they are.

If this personal belief can be forced on others and made legal then I take it you’re ready for others to be? Happy to be forced to accept Christianity and live in a country where Christian doctrine dictates the law? We’re still in the process of moving away from that after 1000 years of it. But you’re ready for the roll back, right? Happy to muck in and make it happen?

Woman = adult human female.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/09/2018 08:55

Maybe we should start calling ourselves gender atheists. I accept that you have a right to believe that either you yourself or other people have a "gender identity", but I just don't believe in a sense of gender that's separate to one's body. You have the right to your beliefs, but they're bugger all to do with me and there's no good reason why I should be obliged to pretend to share them, or why organizations should be forced to do so either.

Theswaggyotter · 29/09/2018 09:29

I can never understand when people blithely repeat twaw even when it’s pointed out that includes people like Karen White, David Challenor, Marie Dean who are convicted predatory men who have sexually assaulted women /children. Their dressing in their women /little girl costume is part of a fetish, a paraphilia which we cannot accept in normal society. Do you really think they are women silver ?

Totally agree with you OP

Mrsr8 · 29/09/2018 09:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

deepwatersolo · 29/09/2018 09:35

SilverBirch, it is cute that you self-identify as a feminist, but as long as you can‘t define what a woman is, you have no concept that could enable you to support women‘s rights. But hey, self-ID is for free. The rest of the world just doesn‘t have to buy it - just like the women with penises hoax.

FlowerpotFairyHouse · 29/09/2018 09:42

I can never understand when people blithely repeat twaw even when it’s pointed out that includes people like Karen White, David Challenor, Marie Dean who are convicted predatory men who have sexually assaulted women /children.

I genuinely think it is because they don't realise/accept these men are just as valid as TW as old skool transsexuals.

This is where the 'bigot'/t**f labels come in. They think that is us being alarmist/scaremongering/hateful/deliberately escalating something to a ridiculous nth degree because of course they don't accept those people as TW and neither would anyone else. Silly.

The whole thing seems so ridiculous to people that they just don't bother to look into it because it is clearly a nonsense.

KnotsInMay · 29/09/2018 09:49

“I acknowledge a trans woman as a fellow woman. I support their place in society, their right to medical care, their right to express their true selves, their right to the protection of the law and I believe them to be as worthy of acceptance and respect as any other person....To any trans people reading this, please know you are valuable, worthy of equal rights, love and respect”

I agree with all of that. But I will not be silenced by TAs whose mission it is to erase the currency of biology and replace my own definition of myself with theirs. And I will not be silenced by that, or allow their misogynistic abuse on social media or their assault in free speech to take my voice away.

LangCleg · 29/09/2018 09:58

I acknowledge a trans woman as a fellow woman.

I don't and neither does at least 82% of the population.

I support their place in society, their right to medical care, their right to express their true selves, their right to the protection of the law and I believe them to be as worthy of acceptance and respect as any other person.

Disingenuous, manipulative straw man. So does every "bigot", "transphobe", "witch", "TERF" of my acquaintance. Every feminist in creation celebrates gender non-conformity. They just don't believe that people can change sex or that male people should be able to appropriate women's rights on the basis of gender non-conformity.

MsBeaujangles · 29/09/2018 10:08

Silverbirch

My involvement in supporting trans people stretches way beyond wishing them well.

I am directly involved in helping young people with gender dysphoria navigate a very distressing condition. I work with schools to help them promote acceptance of gender non conformity. I work with trans parents whose transitioning impacts on their families. Without exception, no person I have worked with has ever questioned my commitment to making life better for them and those around them. This is despite me acknowledging their natal sex, recognising that it can only be changed in the eyes of the law and being clear that my work involves balancing their interests with those around them. Not one has experienced this as transphobic, yet when people express these views on social media, many people shout bigot/ transphobe.

Attempts to silence women is going to provoke more anger and, in my view, promote anti trans sentiment. Prioritising one group's interests over another's is similarly going to promote a backlash - be that trans people's interests or women's. Denying women the opportunity to discuss sex specific interests through attempting to remove the label/definition that has always been used for them is not going to remove sex specific interests.

I think I am in a privileged position as I am able to improve outcomes for trans people and people with all sorts of life challenges. In doing so I don't engage in adversity top trumps. Women and girls face all sorts of adversity. Trans people face all sorts of adversity. Much of the time, generic interventions help all. Sometimes, what would work for one can impact negatively on another and nothing good comes from ignoring this or responding to emotional or physical manipulation to prioritise one group over another.

Estellesylvia · 29/09/2018 10:17

Whenever you try to bring up examples like Karen White you are just batted aside as giving 'extreme examples' and told to stop whipping up hatred. Not a thought is given to the victims of men like Karen White.

But as I said in the OP, we will keep on saying it till it gets through. We won't shut up about this, ever.

OP posts: