'women don't have penises'

[Charliethefeminist]

@mnhq I want to discuss this - is the thread title allowed?

This statement is leading people to think that feminists require males to have penis surgery and then they become women. We should make it clear that TW who have had penis surgery almost always still have a penis, but it has been hollowed out and inverted into the cavity which they describe as a vagina or neo vagina. Post surgery, almost all TW still have penises, and are still not women.

I really hope this post doesn't get me banned so I have reported it myself and mnhq please advise rather than suspend me, thanks so much.

Also, how do we know when someone has had meaningful surgery? Is that another thing we have to take on trust?

I agree that there is far more to this than the threat/fear of physical and sexual violence.

I'm not. They retain any predisposition to male violence they had prior to surgery and are usually bigger and stronger than almost all women.

Also, their reason for penis not making the difference is the same as our reason: how is anybody supposed to know whether a penis lurks or not?

I used to think it would be possible not to throw old school transsexuals under the bus but I'm three years into this now and no longer think anything other than sex segregation will keep the arseholes out.

I'm with Vicky.
A male without a penis is not a female, even if said penis is turned inside out and used to make a front hole.
Anyway as there is no way of knowing if the penis has been retained then it has to be no males in women's spaces, penis or not - no ifs, ands or buts

Yeah, again I am not and have never been comfortable with a male in female spaces and whether or not they get their penis surgically changed or whatever happens, makes little difference to me and how I feel. The threat and discomfort still exists. I think the focus on the penis is the wrong focus and sounds a bit silly. I know they do have rights if they are post-op, but thats why I avoid public spaces. I know a male bodied person when I see one and I do not need to check for a penis to do so.

I think my feeling is than a post-operative transwomen never really had the inclinations for male violence of their counterparts which is why they chose to change their sex in the belief that they’re not like other men.

Men who self ID as women offer no such assurance.

But that’s actually based in nothing I now realise.

The safety issues aren’t just about penises and the threat of rape. Men are also physically stronger etc.

We Women -adult human female and girls- have a right to say who we have in our spaces, changing rooms, dormitories, rape crisis centres.

We have a right to request a same sex Doctor, Nurse, we have a right to keep all women's short lists/ women sport/ etc for women.

We have a right to have spaces and time away from men. We have a right to talk about ourselves and our bodies without it being labelled as hate speech.

I'm with Lang we have been pushed and hounded into a situation where sex segregation is the only option now, making it illegal to violate that. TRA have fucked it totally for transexuals.

Hmm, this is an eye opening thread for me for the wrong reasons.

I have been following this debate very closely (under various usernames) and have been spending an awful lot of time thinking about it and getting other people on board. But I struggle with some of what is being said here.

Where does that leave post operative transmen (ftm)? presumably not in the women's changing rooms since they have a body part resembling a penis and they present as a male. So presumably you want men, post operative transwomen with no dangling bits (mtf) post operative transmen (ftm) with dangling bits all in the male changing rooms??

I am very vocal on this and actively trying to peak the people around me but you've alienated me with this stance and that would indicate to me that you'll probably alienate others who are less on board in the first place.

Might just be me though.

I'm happy to share private same sex spaces with transwomen. I honestly don't think a man would go through the long, stressful and complex process of becoming trans just so he could go into a female space to "perv" or whatever.

Simply put, if a man really wanted to perv or commit a sex offence of some sort there are numerous means of doing so that are far easier than becoming trans.

user187656748
this recent thread may be worth reading:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3364094-Debbie-Hayton-in-the-Times

just to clarify - I mean you've lost me when you say that you seek to exclude post op mtf transwomen on the basis that their hole which is designed to resemble a vagina was once the skin that formed their penis.

I am fully in agreement with the stance on pre op people.

I feel less safe around transwomen since I started doing more reading and having a look at TRAs time lines etc. There seems to be so much hatred of women, and strong interests in porn/fetishism etc. I would have felt reasonably safe previously, but not lately. The people I've encountered online have been agressive, misogynist bullies. I wouldn't want to share space with them under any circumstances. I would also say that I know the TRAs I've encountered are not the same as the transwomen I've encountered before, who were quietly trying to live their lives.

Tracyracer there is no complicated or long process involved in becoming trans, what gave you that idea?

I don't reckon anyone who's had that op is going to be a threat. They've made a hell of a commitment and have disabled the male weapon. They deserve the honorary title. But it's a bit like an honorary doctorate: they aren't actually qualified.
As for people who simply put on a dress: I'd like to know what they think a woman actually is.

Tracyracer there is no complicated or long process involved in becoming trans, what gave you that idea?

No, but there is in becoming a post op trans person

well I have been raped and assaulted, more than once and I do not want to share spaces with anyone not female. I mean, am I the only one that has seen how post op transwomen speak about us? That Munroe person? Hello? They do not respect us. At the end of the day, many women will not be comfortable around biological males in their spaces regardless. As long as one woman is uncomfortable, it should not be allowed. Re transmen, again we can identify these people and I am comfortable with them in female spaces. I don't know of any woman who isn't.

Re transmen, again we can identify these people and I am comfortable with them in female spaces. I don't know of any woman who isn't.

I'm sorry for your circumstances but I'm not sure you would always identify these people. You would see someone presenting as a male and with male genitalia. There are certainly huge numbers of women who for religious and cultural reasons would not be able to share a changing room with such a person.

It's very difficult once you say that it isn't about the genitalia. The argument logically takes you to four separate spaces male, female, transman, transwoman.

You would see someone presenting as a male and with male genitalia.

The vast majority of transmen do not, at present, tend to have phalloplasty because the results are very poor.

User, there is indeed, but the pp did not mention post op persons. Many members of the public however do believe that “trans gender” means someone who has or is on way to having surgery. It’s important to correct that misconception

I am happy to share space with a dysphoric trans woman who has gone through the process legally and is taking hormones and heading for surgery or has had surgery. As someone else said somewhere, they are like naturalised immigrants in the country of woman. I feel quite protective of the transsexual (their term before anyone pulls me on it) women I know.

I have the common problems with self-ID etc

I think we are talking at cross purposes. The OP was saying that a post op transwoman (mtf) still has a penis (albeit inverted and turned into an approximation of a vagina) and should therefore be excluded from female spaces.

My point was that many people will not be with the OP on that one. It could well unpeak people (it's caused me significant concern since that is a step backwards in terms of inclusion and equality IMO - although I am in agreement that a post op transwoman is still a transwoman and does not biologically become a woman).

It's a completely different point to educating people so that they know that most transwomen don't have bottom surgery. I suspect this isn't common knowledge and would peak a lot of people.

I am aware that most transmen (ftm) don't have bottom surgery but I was using those who do to illustrate my point.

If my brother, or your dad tragically lost their penis in an accident, would we bring them in with us to the changing rooms and be astonished that other women didn't feel comfortable? Does a man losing his penis make him less of a man? Is a penisless man basically an outcast, diminished, might-as-well-be-a-woman?

Does my discomfort at changing in front of my dad disappear if he is impotent?

No?

There are still two sexes, and my sex, in particular, deserves to retain the right to privacy and dignity. My boundaries are absolute.

Oh, and for those posters who feel that having the op means a chap is now enchanting and harmless, let's just have a think about some men who have surgically transitioned and assess how much we feel women should embrace them:
Jane Fae/John Ozimek, hard core pornography defender of the 'domestic violence gone wrong' comments.
Sarah Brown, ex Cambridge city counsellor, of "suck my formaldehyde pickled balls" fame
India Willoughby, of the 'women with unshaved legs are dirty' comments, of the enraged tantrum, spitting "I am a woman, let that PENETRATE' at a group of women who were bending over backwards to pretend for him.
Karen White. Convicted rapist and murderer.

That's a no to them all for me. I hope they had other motivations for the operation than just forcing their way into any space females might be. Because this female is saying no.

Men remain men, regardless of what they do with their penises.
Some of them are as vile and as dangerous as men who remain intact.
And I remain as different from a penisless man as I am from an intact man.

The reward for having surgery isn't the demolishing of women's boundaries.

Cut off your genitalia: achievement unlocked!
Nope.

That isn't how this is going to work.

I am not some bloke's consolation prize for undergoing castration, and the sooner men realise that women's rights are not a level to be unlocked in a computer game when you gain the right amount of points, the sooner they will see us as humans fundamentally different from themselves who have boundaries that will not be breached.

After recently finding out the horrific potential consequences for transition surgery and hormones I think it should only be a last resort for people who have tried everything else and cannot possibly continue without it. I don’t think people with penises should be in women’s spaces and I don’t feel penis surgery to get in women’s spaces should be touted as an acceptable solution and vice versa. If we need additional spaces for everyone to feel comfortable then so be it.