'women don't have penises'

[Charliethefeminist]

@mnhq I want to discuss this - is the thread title allowed?

This statement is leading people to think that feminists require males to have penis surgery and then they become women. We should make it clear that TW who have had penis surgery almost always still have a penis, but it has been hollowed out and inverted into the cavity which they describe as a vagina or neo vagina. Post surgery, almost all TW still have penises, and are still not women.

I really hope this post doesn't get me banned so I have reported it myself and mnhq please advise rather than suspend me, thanks so much.

Yanbu

What about "Women don't have a Y chromosome"?

I think it's a great slogan but we just need to explain whenever we get the chance

YANBU. Women don't have penises. Simple statement of fact.

Yes I agree and iabu but I just want to tell people that post op tw still have penises

Google ‘non standard vaginoplasty’ and you will find that keeping one’s penis and adding a vagina-esque cavity below it is now a surgical option for the discerning transwoman-about-town.

You will likely need eye bleach afterwards though. You have been warned.

Oh dear lord. All those dicks lying like rotten sausages on tin plates and being turned inside out.

Imagine doing that TO YOUR CHILD

I think the point of the statement is what men are able to do with their penis. Deep down, that is what I am wary of. Knowing a man has had his penis rendered incapable of actual use, gives me a measure of safety. The removal of the testicles also changes hormone balance which again gives me a sense of safety.

I'm not saying men become women when surgery takes place (they don't), but for me, they become safer to be around. But I will never know this on a non-naked person, so a blanket rule needs to be in place - anyone born male should stay away from women's spaces.

Oh gosh, for me I don't feel safer around a man without a penis. They are still on average physically much more powerful- I am short and small, fit and strong but every man I know can easily overpower me. The thing that makes men I do not know a concern, is not just their actual penis, but the way they have been socialised and how that affects the way they see me. If they wanted to stick something in me to punish me, they will, whether they use a penis or something else. I hope that this comment is not to graphic for Mumsnet. Sorry, just joined.

So although I dont dare click on BettyduMonde's link at work, I am now imagining a group of men who possibly really would be able to fuck themselves. Oo er Mrs.

No I'm not happy either. Not at all. The Sweden study Dhejne 2003 included transexual people and found that ALL trans XY maintained male pattern criminality across the stats.

I think you have to be very careful. Many of the very valid concerns are centred around the fact that many transwomen retain their male genitals (in original form). If a person has undergone reassignment surgery then they have protection under the legislation (which has been in place for years).

Whilst you are still correct in that it doesn't turn a post op man (or someone in the process) into a biological woman, it does currently give them a different set of rights. Our arguments/position are weakened when we take this hard line stance.

Surgery doesn't give anyone more rights

Under the law

What is a 'hard line stance'? There is more to a man than his penis... in that i can tell as can almost everyone, by looking at a person, whether I can see genitals or not. So there is still a valid concern regarding comfort and culture. Culturally, we separate the sexes. Culturally we have all grown up in sex separated spaces and our comfort is of equal importance to our safety IMO.

I don't know. I'm perfectly happy to share a space with a tw who had had her penis turned into a penis vagina. Visually I doubt I could tell the difference without looking closely and the penis no longer presents a pore tial danger to me. It transwomen who have had this surgery want to use female spaces I don't see the harm.

It's more about getting the information out that that post-op transwomen have penises.

The problem with the Y chromosome is that women with Androgen insensitivity an intersex condition actually do.

I’m happy to share private same sex spaces with post operative trans women. There’s a physical removal of danger and a very clear intentionality there. That’s a life choice and one that is not considered lightly. But self-ID potentially predatory males with a fully functioning penis and on occasion a penchant for preying on vulnerable women? Fuck that.

It's more about getting the information out that that post-op transwomen have penises.

They don't. Not in the traditional sense. Their penis has been turned into a hole to represent a vagina. I thought the key message was that the vast majority of transgender mtf chose to retain their penises and not have bottom surgery - which is a completely different thing.

I am on board with the majority of what we are saying on this board but I think you lose the sympathy of the 'common man' when you venture into the realms of post op (bottom surgery) people. That's the point at which the accusations of bigotry will be made.

James Kirkup The Spectator 19/8/2018:
'Is it a crime to say ‘women don’t have penises’?
(extract)
"For some, the basic question posed here is: Do women have a legal right to say No to being in an enclosed private space with a person who has a penis? And the current law, as it is applied, does not say an unqualified Yes to that question. Proposals to allow people to change gender on the basis of their own self-declaration (without, for instance, a medical diagnosis) leave some women even more concerned that they will have no meaningful legal right to exclude people with penises from their spaces.

Hence the stickers. Women in several parts of the U.K. are printing and distributing stickers saying “women don’t have penises”, in order to bring to wider public attention what they see as the basic facts of the transgender issue. To others, these stickers are hurtful and offensive, a position captured in this report from Pink News."(continues)

concludes:
And here’s Joe Anderson, elected mayor of Liverpool:

“We will remove stickers and work with the Police to identify those responsible.”

It’s traditional to end columns like this by making an argument or a point, but in this case, I think the most eloquent comment I can make about Britain today and the state of the transgender debate is just to restate the facts and let readers draw their own conclusions: A feminist group is today facing the prospect of investigation by a police force and a City mayor for saying “women don’t have penises”.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/is-it-a-crime-to-say-women-dont-have-penises/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3364329-Motion-against-Liverpool-ReSisters-by-Liverpool-City-Council

I’m happy to share private same sex spaces with post operative trans women. There’s a physical removal of danger and a very clear intentionality there.

I'm not. They retain any predisposition to male violence they had prior to surgery and are usually bigger and stronger than almost all women.

Both pennydrew and Vicky raise good points. I am not sure how I feel about the issue. Before, I would have agreed with penny, but Vicky's points are thought-provoking.

I think there are two main issues, really, and they overlap. One is the safety issue and that definitely relates to penis-retention; the other is the threat to sex-based rights based on the redefinition of woman. If every transwoman gave up their penis the latter problem would remain.

The penis issue is easier to communicate as it is concrete; the sex-based rights one is difficult because it is abstract.

Telling someone most transwomen have penises conjures up an image which is, frankly, comical - but what does a sex-based right look like?