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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

fascinating article about Rachel Dolezal & the white woman who identifies as black

33 replies

TimeForDebate · 25/09/2018 00:40

So many parallels here with trans tales - feeling like the outsider, identifying with a group she wasn't part of and could never really be, yet claiming a right to that membership and becoming enraged when challenged - there must be some deep trauma at the heart of all these dissociative conditions that make people hate themselves so much. www.thestranger.com/features/2017/04/19/25082450/the-heart-of-whiteness-ijeoma-oluo-interviews-rachel-dolezal-the-white-woman-who-identifies-as-black

OP posts:
Fearandsurprise · 25/09/2018 07:38

This stood out to me in the article: And it is white supremacy that told an unhappy and outcast white woman that black identity was hers for the taking. It is white supremacy that told her that any black people who questioned her were obviously uneducated and unmotivated to rise to her level of wokeness.

Trampire · 25/09/2018 08:21

There's a Netflix documentary about this called Being Racheal.

It's fascinating.

Trampire · 25/09/2018 08:25

So sorry it's called The Rachel Divide (I totally remembered that wrong!).

Check out “The Rachel Divide” on Netflix
www.netflix.com/title/80149821?s=i&trkid=13752289

Freespeecher · 25/09/2018 11:06

Funny thing was the Dolezal thing broke before the whole Trans thing did, so you had the Graun staff united in saying that the likes of Dolezal couldn't just announce they were black before, shortly afterwards, having to pull a very contorted reverse ferret to say that, while it was still true for Dolezal, when it came to the Trans thing it was... look, it's just different ok?

Deathgrip · 25/09/2018 14:26

Stil find this fascinating - the feminist groups where you must support TWAW are the same ones where Dolezal is utterly despised. They don’t see the connection because they don’t truly believe that women are oppressed.

Switch it out, and it’s the same arguments against, but one is tolerated and one isn’t. For example, change it up:
“For a men who had grown up with only a few magazines of stylized images of women to imagine themselves into a real-life female identity without any lived female experience, to turn themselves into a women’s history professor without a history degree, to place themselves at the forefront of local feminism that they had adopted less than a decade earlier, all while seeming to claim to do it better and more authentically than any woman who would dare challenge them—well, it's the ultimate "you can be anything" success story of male America. Another branch of manifest destiny...

Perhaps it really was that simple. I couldn't escape trans issues because I can't escape male supremacy. And it is male supremacy that told an unhappy and outcast white man that female identity was theirs for the taking. It is male supremacy that told them that any women who questioned them were obviously uneducated and unmotivated to rise to her level of wokeness. It is white supremacy that then elevated this display of privilege into the dominating conversation on black female identity in America. It is male supremacy that decided that it was worth a book deal, national news coverage, and yes—even this interview.“

Or this most of all:
“Throughout our conversation, I get the increasing impression that, for someone who claims to love womanhood, they bave little more than contempt for many women and their own female identities.

The dismissive and condescending attitude toward any women who see womanhood differently than they do is woven throughout their comments in our conversation.”

Deathgrip · 25/09/2018 14:28

Oops, missed one. You get the point.

dinosaurkisses · 25/09/2018 14:33

The documentary on Netflix is absolutely fascinating- so many parallels to the current trans debate, and the programme makers do give a nod to it.

The Dolezal case was the first time I started to think critically about why the whole transgender thing is a bit...off.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 25/09/2018 15:15

Really interesting article. Also fascinating to see the comments BTL from people tying themselves in knots explaining how transgender is completely, utterly, totally different because they never, ever had male privilege (in fact everyone is much nicer to girls) and theirs is "biological" etc.

There was one honest one who said that was no real difference between their situation and RD's, although they seemed to argue that was grounds for accepting RD's self id as black because otherwise it might hurt their cause!

OhHolyJesus · 25/09/2018 15:34

Oh my god so glad someone else has brought this up - I watched the documentary an thought they last bit where she fills in the form to register the birth (and race) of the child was particularly weird.

You can't claim to be black any more than you can claim to be a woman (when you're not) but identifying as one and living your life as one is another thing - but is it? Really fascinating debate about how you grow up and what you experience growing up.

Lottapianos · 25/09/2018 15:41

Another recommendation for the Rachel Divide. It's really fascinating. She's a very sad and strange person. I felt really sorry for her, especially when she berates herself for being unable to 'get over' her parents' horrendous treatment of her and her siblings. There's no doubt she has suffered terribly and is deeply traumatised

That said, her assertion that she is black is highly offensive. She was challenged passionately by black women at a Q&A session in the documentary but she seemed to have no empathy with their position. The last 5-10 minutes of the documentary are really disturbing. And yes, there are trans parallels all the way through

PeakPants · 25/09/2018 15:47

If we examine it properly, there is no difference between trans-racialism and trans-genderism. None. Race is a material reality, as is biological sex. Black people have been oppressed due to their skin colour, not because of their culture or the clothes they wear or whatever. Women have been oppressed due to our biological sex, not our gender identity. The thought that a white person should be permitted to call themselves black is grotesque to the majority of black people. It's laughable- they are part of the oppressor class and have had the benefit of being white throughout their life. But when the same happens with men and women, we bend over backwards to try to deny that biology is a real thing.

I feel sorry for RD and I feel sorry for people with gender dysphoria. I hope more trans-racial people come out of the woodwork in order to expose the trans-movement for exactly what it is.

I have never heard a single convincing argument as to why trans-racialism is different to trans-genderism. Because there is none- they are the same thing and they are highly problematic for the same reason.

Deathgrip · 25/09/2018 15:51

The only even vaguely relevant argument I’ve seen is that race is entirely genetic while sex is governed by both genes and hormone reception in the womb. That suggests though that all trans people are either intersex or have hormone-related GD which we know is not the case.

Lottapianos · 25/09/2018 15:53

'If we examine it properly, there is no difference between trans-racialism and trans-genderism. None. Race is a material reality, as is biological sex'

Yes, you're right Peak. And 'grotesque' is exactly the right word. It is grotesque that a biological male puts on wigs, heels, dresses and mascara and claims to be a woman. Do the heels and the dresses if you choose to - go for it - but none of it makes you a woman if your biology is male

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 25/09/2018 15:57

And, of course, biologically, the difference between races is nowhere near as distinct as that between the sexes.

PeakPants · 25/09/2018 16:00

The only even vaguely relevant argument I’ve seen is that race is entirely genetic while sex is governed by both genes and hormone reception in the womb.

I don't see the difference here to be honest. I am not a biologist, but sex is a material reality. Unless someone has an intersex condition (which is very rare), their biological sex will be entirely unambiguous. My understanding was that sex was determined by the male sperm- not that hormone levels in the womb influence what sex a baby is born. Either way, the point is that male-bodied people have oppressed female-bodied people in the same way that white people have oppressed black people. For either of the oppressor classes to declare that they feel part of the oppressed group is absolutely ludicrous.

How would people with disabilities feel if I, as an able-bodied person, self-identified as disabled and demanded a blue badge and full access to benefits and schemes designed to assist those with disabilities? Would that be cool?

CrackpotsArePots · 25/09/2018 16:02

I think it's the best, most persuasive analogy there is.

The fact that it started with an abusive upbringing and identity problems

That it continued with her finding kinship

Then it concluded with her offensively taking things she had no right to.

I feel sorry for her too and I feel sorry for anyone who has been abused. I even feel sorry for AC. But to act out your psychopathology in ways that harm others - that is never OK.

I do not feel sorry for the Men's rights activists and fetishists

2rebecca · 25/09/2018 16:02

I think the privilege/ oppression argument is a bit irrelevant. Your skin colour is what it is and your sex is what it is regardless of how much oppression a particular group has had.
Liking the stereotypes of a different sex or racial group doesn't make you a member of that group and stereotyping groups is offensive.
Expand the interests and dress codes/ mannerisms of the group you are in rather than trying to be something you're not.

GingerPCatt · 25/09/2018 16:05

To me trans-racialism is much more... plausible (not the right word)... understandable? as the biological differences between “races” is very minor whereas the biological differences between males and females is huge.

Deathgrip · 25/09/2018 16:06

I wasn’t saying I agree. I was saying it’s the only thing approaching an argument I’ve seen.

There are trans-abled people and those who support trans rights are nowhere near as scathing of them as they are of Dolezal from what I’ve seen.

PeakPants · 25/09/2018 16:11

2rebecca I do think the oppression angle is relevant though. It explains why this is something that is a risk and danger to women. It's not simply that it's impossible to change race and sex- it is that it is actually deeply insulting to oppressed groups to have their oppressors identifying as them and taking away the hard fought for rights that they do have. If people can self-ID into getting woman of the year awards and standing on AWS and competing in female sports events, that pushes women even further backwards. Same as it would if white people put on some dark foundation, claimed to be black and took up posts and opportunities reserved for black candidates and claimed that it was diversity.

Manderleyagain · 25/09/2018 16:12

A bloke argues on twitter that anyone who identifies as black is black. It's mentioned on dr jane clare jones twitter (which is an excellent twitter feed well worth checking out.)

Anyway - he's a barrister, and he works for UK TELI.

As someone points out he's trying to apply logic. He knows trans racial and trans gender are logically consistent, he just hasn't had the memo that you are supposed to pretend that they are not.

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1044333394841210880

PeakPants · 25/09/2018 16:13

I know you don't agree, Deathgrip, I was just deconstructing that argument. Grin
So hypocritical of the TRAs to criticise Dolezal when doing exactly the same thing themselves.

Bowlofbabelfish · 25/09/2018 16:14

Hormone wash theory? Not true. TRA push it a lot though.

abnormal hormone levels do have an effect in the foetus but that effect not changing their sex. It can be things like an increased predisposition to PCOS for example, but it doesn’t change thebsecbof the foetus.

This is such a disturbing case. She’s obviously had a really awful childhood and I feel extremely sorry for her for that. Her appropriation of ‘blackness’ has so many parallels to trans though and it’s fascinaying to listen to people try to explain why one is to be celebrated and one to be slammed.

PeakPants · 25/09/2018 16:16

Manderley yes, I saw that. What an idiot. But it's good that this stupidity is being exposed. I would love for a blue eyed blond man to run for president of the black lawyer's society and for this barrister-dude to defend that said Aryan must be black if he says so and that it's totally in society's interests to allow this and that 'cis-black' (?) people should STFU about potential erasure. If stuff like that happens, maybe people will wake up, but who knows?

EvaTheOptimist · 25/09/2018 16:23

And race CAN be a continuum in a way that sex cannot. So you can have one black grandparent and 3 white grandparents, and possibly you would "present as" or "be" black. Or you can have one black grandparent, one Asian grandparent, one white grandparent... etc etc - race can potentially (depending on your genes) be an area where you might have some choice over which heritage you describe yourself as. Whereas sex really is just one or the other (apart from a tiny percentage of intersex).